[SpatulaODoom]

So does that make you the one we need to thank for HMHVV being close to unresistible and very easily transmitted in 4th ed?

No, I'm the one trying to clean that up.

Why has it to be cleaned up (true question here)? Wasn't HMHVV created to be dangerous and something PCs should not mess with?
Doubled with the fact that it could only infect people if only they were drained with the power, to 0 Essence, I don't think it was broken.
So why?
(Edit; think you were actually talking about Strain III. But if I remember well, you had to spend time for risking infection by respiring it and so on?)

Only strain 1, the vampire proper, requires them to drain your essence before you can be infected.
Strain 2 and 3, 3 being the one which creates ghouls, has the original (IE official) vector being contact. This means unless you were in a chem-sealed suit of some sort all the ghoul had to do was touch you. And with Power 8, Pen -3, and the note that there's no actual medicine that can give a dice pool bonus you really had no reasonable way to resist.

[Boomstick]

Well, I knew for contact for the other strains (at first thought they were speaking about strain I, thus my question)
and as I remember contact doesn't mean it go though clothes easily. It has to touch your skin.
But indeed I forgot about penetration (which was actually -6, for both strain II and III. And for Strain II having Power 13, you should less care risk of becoming a ghoul than a werewolf or things like that. And chem seal won't help with such penetration...)

[bannockburn]

Chem Seal does indeed help.
Penetration has nothing to do with armor, it's against helpful medications and filter systems.

But Contact vector doesn't mean it has to touch your skin.
It means that a ghoul can cough in your general direction and poof, you're one, too.

[Boomstick]

Chem Seal does indeed help.
Penetration has nothing to do with armor, it's against helpful medications and filter systems.

But Contact vector doesn't mean it has to touch your skin.
It means that a ghoul can cough in your general direction and poof, you're one, too.

P.136 Augmentations says:
Diseases spread by contact must touch the target’s skin*. A chemical seal (see p. 317, SR4) offers complete protection unless
breached.

* this is also stated for toxins in SR4A (but I don't have US version there)

Penetration
Similar to Armor Penetration for weapons, a disease or pathogen’s Penetration rating affects the rating of any protective system used to defend against it, including pharmaceuticals.

If a chem seal is not a protective system, what is it? (actually, Augmentations states later "protective systems, implants, medications") It doesn't state it has to be internal. Actual, Seven-7 which was developped to bypass the most regular chem protections, has a Penetration of -2.
So, no, you won't become a ghoul because of that as indeed, sneeze spits can go as far as 5 meters, but dispersion being what it is, you don't really risk a contact if not closer. And again, if you don't inhale it or aren't in direct contact (skin;)) with it, it is not a problem (while you would like not bring this so nice shirt to the laundry but burn it instead...).

And as for Penetration for HMHVV, as it is a retrovirus, it is very small (usually, some have capside and external membranes that make them bigger and help them somewhat to be more resistant to adverse conditions or more virulent, something of a trade, but HMHVV seems to have best of both world, for our displeasure), so it makes sense it is able to bypass regular chemical protection.
Most gloves are for example not adapted when you work in P3/P4 level biolab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosafety_level)

[bannockburn]

First, ask your self how a virus might be able to 'touch your skin' (meaning ANY exposed bit of skin). Droplet infection, to give you one example. I.e. a ghoul coughing in your general direction in a close enough vicinity (such as when he tries to eat your head off).

Second, the description for a chem seal states, that it "provides complete protection against contact and inhalation chemicals" (SR4A, p. 327). True. A virus is not a chemical, but the resistances work really similar. In fact, the only HAZMAT suit in the game (Mitsuhama EE Suit) has in its description that it's "worn by those who must deal directly with [...] chemical or biological agents" (Arsenal, p. 55), but in the next sentence only states that it "protects against chemicals (full chemical seal), heat and fire (Fire Resistance 3) and radiation (Radiaton Shield 6)". No word about viruses or other biological threats anymore. I chose to infer from that, that a chemical seal indeed protects against them.

Now, how would you calculate "Complete Protection minus 6"?

And honestly, it is not necessary to pump up the threat of a ghoulpocalypse even more

Personally, I use Patrick's fixed rules if I ever use ghouls in my game, with the additional limitation that only a ghoul of the same metatype can infect you. This is by far dangerous enough.

[Boomstick]

First, ask your self how a virus might be able to 'touch your skin' (meaning ANY exposed bit of skin). Droplet infection, to give you one example. I.e. a ghoul coughing in your general direction in a close enough vicinity (such as when he tries to eat your head off).

That could also be spits, blood, or any biological material, or sweat from the infected touching you (as far as we know, virus is in every parts of the body). Skin contact would do. So it is not really limitative. And actually, I know that pretty well, bacteriology/virology and pharmaceuticals are some of  the things I make a living from.

Second, the description for a chem seal states, that it "provides complete protection against contact and inhalation chemicals" (SR4A, p. 327). True. A virus is not a chemical, but the resistances work really similar.

Well, I agree with that. Still, complete is not a number, and almost everything else in the game work by them.
But even if it is absolute protection (since I admit that calculating "Complete Protection minus 6" is not easy;)), it means it works only for hazmat. Other chemical protections would not work (as their rating is so inferior to penetration).

And honestly, it is not necessary to pump up the threat of a ghoulpocalypse even more

Risk? The risk is more a humanocaplypse, IMHO. Most ghouls are ferals. And even when they are not, we are a lot smarter, and a lot more dangerous than them. They are threats on the same level than wolves. You don't want to be run by a pack of these when not armed and alone and hurt. And when they are hungry. Else, they will probably won't be dangerous enough in comparison of you to them.

Personally, I use Patrick's fixed rules if I ever use ghouls in my game, with the additional limitation that only a ghoul of the same metatype can infect you. This is by far dangerous enough.

Unless you do the same for other strains, that would not really stand in the logic of the game, that state that a strain is virulent intermetatypes (only effects changing). Unless you had more explanations.
But why not using them as they are. Do you think bounties are so high for the only sake of them being easy prey not dangerous to deal with?
When it comes to ghouls, it is mostly because of numbers and flaws like this one.
I really don't think that was broken from the start. HMHVV is done to be the bogeyman of viruses. Not your common flu. At least, for me, and in fluff. Yeah, it can feel dangerous. Sometimes, players should not need to meet a dragon, an IE or an AI to feel like a B52 load of drek carpet bombed  the fan. There are "smaller" things (literaly or not) which should be a threat as well.

[bannockburn]

That could also be spits, blood, or any biological material, or sweat from the infected touching you (as far as we know, virus is in every parts of the body). Skin contact would do. So it is not really limitative. And actually, I know that pretty well, bacteriology/virology and pharmaceuticals are some of  the things I make a living from.

So we are d'accord then on this matter

Other chemical protections would not work (as their rating is so inferior to penetration).

Yes. Chemical Protection is another armor addon, and it would be reduced by the Penetration of the virus.
In my opinion, the Chemical Seal however (which is, in any case, only available for full body armor, like MilSpec, e.g.) does exactly the same as described under the EE Suit's entry.

Unless you do the same for other strains, that would not really stand in the logic of the game, that state that a strain is virulent intermetatypes (only effects changing). Unless you had more explanations.

I do Personal preference and a weak interpretation of the line "Note that a character can only be infected by an HMHVV strain that targets their particular metatype—attempts to infect characters of a different metavariant automatically fail, though the victim may become an unwitting carrier" (Runner's Companion, p. 82).
I know that this isn't meant this way, but that's how I run it

But why not using them as they are. Do you think bounties are so high for the only sake of them being easy prey not dangerous to deal with?
When it comes to ghouls, it is mostly because of numbers and flaws like this one.
I really don't think that was broken from the start. HMHVV is done to be the bogeyman of viruses. Not your common flu. At least, for me, and in fluff. Yeah, it can feel dangerous. Sometimes, players should not need to meet a dragon, an IE or an AI to feel like a B52 load of drek carpet bombed  the fan. There are "smaller" things (literaly or not) which should be a threat as well.

Because as they are, they are not a mere threat to player characters. If you ever use the virus (and let's admit it, feral ghouls are really nice opponents ... not too many moral questions, just survival, conveniently stupid and really horrible), it will simply kill every player character or turn them into ghouls. There is no other outcome. They may survive if you let them use hand of god and burn edge, but they will end up as a ghoul invariably.
Here's the math, with a Body-maxed troll:
A troll with Body 11+Suprathyroid gland+pathogenic resistance+nephritic screen 4 rolls 17 dice (penetration included) and has to beat a target number of 8, for just the first test of ten.
Why doesn't he use O-cells, Zeta-Interferon or antivirals you ask? Because they don't work. RC states very explicitly on p. 82 that no "inoculations or antiviral agent has been developed which provides any bonus or protection against any species of HMHVV". Thus, O-cell nanites, which use existing databases for their wondrous workings don't work either.
The only thing that works is a mage who casts cure disease on a high power level, to add dice to this test (7, with 7 successes is a nice number for this troll here).
To have a decent chance of beating the odds, you need to have 30 dice in a test that's basically only body (remember, protective stuff gets reduced by 6, so to reach the 24 dice for 8 hits, you need to have 30 in the first place).
You need to roll at least 10 tests. If you fail 1! of these tests by even 1 hit, congratulations, you're now a ghoul. But at least you saved some essence and didn't die ... if that's preferable to dying, that is.

And how many PCs at your table are that optimized troll?
No, thanks. I prefer threats that my players have a chance of more than a snowflake in hell to survive.

[All4BigGuns]

Bit of a nitpick, but that Troll would have 11 Body after the Suprathyroid Gland added its +1, standard maximum is 10. Considering the dearth of things that can actually help out with that resistance and the Penetration, even that Troll is unlikely to see more than 10 dice for that test.

[bannockburn]

Factored in, of course he has exceptional attribute.
If you want, SURGE him for a base BOD of 12. It doesn't change the fact that this is not the average PC

[All4BigGuns]

Factored in, of course he has exceptional attribute.
If you want, SURGE him for a base BOD of 12. It doesn't change the fact that this is not the average PC

Didn't think of those, but then I've only built one character with SURGE, so I tend to forget about it, and I haven't used Exceptional Attribute since back in SR3 and combining it with Bonus Attribute Point.

[Parker]

Yeah; I know.   This is Catalyst's product now, not FASA.  But I'm a lazy GM willing to use the Earthdawn material for background.  So the original source/makers of HMHVV is still a major factor for me.  Dunk's will stated he wanted recognition of ghouls as sapients and dangled the bait for a cheap alternative food-source so said ghouls wouldn't have to continue to be dependant on Tanamous and other criminal organizations for flesh.

'World War Z' ain't recommended as a plot source.

You'd be the number one cause of death in the world. The uber antideluvion of vampires, the first in the strain. All the strains would have originated from you!

Okay, okay, I know I'm just being silly... 
[/quote]
Now-now, no treading on World-of-Darkness

[SpatulaODoom]

There's also genetic optimization, but really Bannockburn's math stands. Assume that troll has massive edge as well while we're at it. He still can't get the necessary dicepool.

The question we really need to ask is "Were ghouls meant to be a threat of that level?" Given their depiction in stories/lore/etc and given how common they are, I'd say no. Fluff and crunch should be in the same ballpark.

I'm fine with the power and penetration of type 2 because they're rare and supposed to be much more dangerous than ghouls, same with the Vampires (and if you ever get drained to essence 0 by a vampire you're dead anyway right?).

[Novocrane]

HMHVV III is the most virulent form of the virus, and it can be spread with a bite, a scratch, even a mere touch if you’re unlucky enough to have an open wound.

I tend to use this quote, rather than getting bent out of shape with the literal interpretation of the mechanics.

[Boomstick]

I am ok with the crunch, I just meant you are not be exposed in first place. First things ranger do when they have to control the spread of a predator or pick some specimen for study is not going to fight it hand to hand. They set traps and hides and watch for them from positions they are not vulnerable to it. Granted a tiger or puma has a lot more movement ability than ghouls. And are a lot less weak from inner flaws (nearly no essence left ? Self harming behavior, like going outside without caring for danger -just like addicts)

So indeed, if you want to play Aliens, better have a reinforced Hazmat and firethrowers, WP grenades (by belts) and loads of ammo for your minigun. They have to come in contact. Movement detectors. Spells. Night vision. Perception enhancement. Plus reaction boosts. I don't think the thing would even be able to get in contact. Because if you are not stupid, you are not going alone (ok, not going is also a good alternative method;)).
In other cases, when you are smarter than that, well, you don't fuck with them in inapropriate ways.

If you take it that way (humans tend to learn quickly how not to be a snack for critters, because if not, they end being snacks and that is uncool), they are only a medium threat. Potentialy vastly more, but that is very latent and very dependant of conditions. I wonder why some crazy terrorist never released some in a railroad station at noon in a capital (in UV protective suits, they don't need to see really, so that would be ok, given you happen to make them wear it. Or else use UV protective "paint", the one for medical cases, in 1 cm layers. Snowghouls. On Seattle, on Christmas.). THAT, would be nasty. Crashing the matrix is for sissies;)

[All4BigGuns]

HMHVV III is the most virulent form of the virus, and it can be spread with a bite, a scratch, even a mere touch if you’re unlucky enough to have an open wound.

I tend to use this quote, rather than getting bent out of shape with the literal interpretation of the mechanics.

That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.