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Lysanderz

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« on: <06-22-13/1818:34> »
Alright so I have a group sort of new-ish to Shadowrun. I'm currently running them through the season 3 missions with 5th edition rules (which is interesting as hell) but their problem has never been a lack of understanding rules. Their tactics at times are... Questionable.

I'm wondering how other groups and GM's handled the more... Finicky transitions in the run? Specifically the fish tank. I'm worried that my team will get there, see it and go "What... The fuck?"

phydaux42

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« Reply #1 on: <06-22-13/2026:00> »
In my experience there's the game the GM wants to run, and then there's the game the players want to play.  If they are not the same then it will be no fun for anyone.

Some players are just looking for a pink mohawk slag-fest, where they're just blasting sway with an SMG in each hand, laughing like a psychopath the whole while.

Other players are looking for the mysterious secrets of the universe, and are willing to slink into the Reraku archology penthouse to get them.

Lysanderz

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« Reply #2 on: <06-22-13/2115:07> »
See this is my problem: These are guys that want the black trench coat games because they see them as challenging and cool. At the same time, their tactical decisions in the past few runs have been.... questionable.

phydaux42

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« Reply #3 on: <06-22-13/2300:41> »
Shadows are tough ,chummer.  Actions have consequences.  Poorly thought out actions have harsh consequences.

Maybe float a few hints that they're being reckless.  If they don't listen, then it's on them.

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« Reply #4 on: <06-22-13/2340:51> »
we need a little bit more to go on here Lysanderz.... what is the questionable part?

Are they: Throwing grenades around in crowded shopping malls?
Are they: Relying on Full auto assault cannons to shoot unarmoured goons?
Are they: Poking their finger into the eyes of guards while kicking them in the shins????
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Lysanderz

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« Reply #5 on: <06-23-13/0916:40> »
Alright let's pull up some recent examples:

-Kidnapping someone's child because they have the belief that the child's parent is somehow rich (they were not even close.)

-Findkng no other alternative to escape an automated taxi cab on its way to the police station other than shoot out the
tires and jump out of a side window...

-Trying to convince the mark that though they are going to kidnap her, they promise she won't die


Those kinds of things....

phydaux42

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« Reply #6 on: <06-23-13/1012:35> »
Here's a little thing I do in my SR universe:

On the Trideo I have Channel 357.  It broadcasts a sort of live action COPS 3D show. SWAT officers with Simsense recorder/broadcaster units on them are in helicopters, hovering over the city 24/7.  When a crime is reported as being in progress they fly to the location, open the side doors, and repel into the middle of the firefight.  It's hugely popular.

Channel 357 also has APB of the Day.  See, even today there are video recorders everywhere.  In 2075 it will be even more pervasive.  If your PCs are being that obvious with their violence, odds are that there is video footage of them doing the deeds. 

Have video of them broadcast on Channel 357 shooting "indiscriminately" in the APB of the Day, along with things such as "wanted felons," "reward for capture" and "armed and dangerous." Also toss in the phrase "general arrest warrant" which sounds so much more politically correct that "wanted dead or alive."

That should get them to keep their heads down a little.
« Last Edit: <06-23-13/1220:20> by phydaux42 »

Redwulfe

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« Reply #7 on: <06-23-13/1130:07> »
This post is long, but hopefully helpful.

Some players, want and like black trench coat games. These types of players find the challenges of that style very rewarding even when their characters die. As this is the type of game that I tend to run I will try to give you some tips that my players enjoy and I have used to fulfill this play style. They have helped me over the years and may or may not help you.

1. Keep an open dialogue with the players: Ask the players if they truly want this style and if they are alright with character death. During my explanation of this style I tell the players that character death is inevitable in a realistic world and the campaign is not about playing forever but seeing if they can survive to retirement, which is their only other alternative. Many players, I have found like this type of environment. If yours don't then have a discussion and adjust the play environment to suite. Maybe they like more of a black trench coat style but want the ability to pink Mohawk during combat scenes. or they want the game more cinematic. The most important thing is that by talking with the group and keeping the open dialog everyone can find the common ground to have fun.

2. Make yourself accountable: This is a personally belief but I like to hold myself as accountable as possible so I can conduct a fair game. I create rules that I have to follow when conducting counter player actions, like sending in a hit squad and such. These rules are things that I have discussed with the players and in some cases the players have helped me create the rules that eventually got them killed. It was a group effort to create a game that we all have fun playing in. I will go over some of these rules below.

3. Keep a record: If you do do a realistic black trench coat game I find it very helpful to keep a dossier on each player so that when they die or retire, which has only happened once in my games, they have a souvenir of there character. My players enjoy going over a "remember when we did that" session during a dinner or such after a characters death. This dossier is a collection several files that I have made for each entity they have ran against and what those companies know about the character from their after run investigation as well as the amount that the players have cost the company which is used in the rules we use to gauge response, see below.

4. Have fun: if for any reason you or your players are not having fun go back to step one and start a new. the point of playing is that everyone is having fun and to me this is the most important rule. If your players find it fun to have random violence and you want it to be realistic then maybe a barrens game is best. the point is adjust the game to your groups play style not just yours or your players individually.

So you may be curious what rules I use to keep myself accountable the best we can. here are a couple that you can borrow if you like.

1. The response table: Every entity that the runners go against gets a response table made for it and it is the first thing I list in the after action file for that entity in the players dossier. This is kind of like the matrix response table that was in third edition, with levels on it and when players hit different levels the company sends out or hires different assets to locate them and deal with them. All of this is usually hidden from the players but some players have hacked into an entity and taken a look at this file from time to time to see what is in their file. Which I think is a pretty smart move all in all. Typically it is a scale from 1-20, which represents millions of new yen more or less. The actual amount depends on the conversation of realism the players wanted from our open dialogue. A run will typically be a 1-10 damaging run. This is the amount of points that on this scale the players will automatically gain for doing the run and affects their initial payout, 5k plus 2k per (damage level plus teams street cred), this is the top end a Johnson will go but it may not be the starting bid. This is modified by things they do on the run like pay data taken, as this further hurts the company in loss of profit and political backlash usually the amount given to the players divided by 1000 in tenths of a point. So, stealing 2k worth of paydata adds .2 points to the rating. Another modifier we discussed and use is if the players kill a corporate employee, as they now have to pay pension to the widow instead of just being able to punish or fire the employee. I usually add professional rating of each employee killed in tenths of a point to the rating. the rating can go into decimals so a player could have a rating of 5.2 at the end of a run. A player will have a rating on this scale for each job they pull against this entity and they are kept separate until the company connects two of the jobs to the same runner, then the ratings are added together. I'm looking at you distinctive style/leaves a calling card guy. Another rule we added was that a players rating goes down by 1 point per week, so players can actually lay low if they want to ride out a rating. If an old job is reopened due to a connecting factor the full rating is added not the current. For example my players ran against Ares and stole some files they waited out a month and a half to lower their 6 response rating and then went about their merry way. Some time latter they ran against Ares again but they left a clue that they maybe the same team, the mage's astral signature matched the old run. The 6 was immediately added to the response of this run and triggered that a loyalty 3 or less contacts gave up the runners street names and this got added to their file. now later if the same mage is caught running on areas not only is the first runs rating added but also the second. The lesson here is stick to the shadows kids. One more note on the response matrix, they were created by the group before the game started not just by me. the the team finally gets geeked by a professional rating 6 team of runners due to high response, they made the chart that killed them themselves though I have used charts from other games I have ran the players get to see them and modify them during open dialogue first, unless they don't want to see them.

2. Things often don't go according to plan: Before a game session I roll a test with a dice pool equal to the number of missions the players have went on without incident and a threshold of 3, something we set during open dialogue. If I succeed at this test the dice pool is reset for next game but on this one something potentially unforeseen complicates the mission, if I glitch something also goes well for the players. and if I critically glitch... In the Van Goh mission I had one team where it was that one of the fish was quarantined in another location of the building due to a fungus infection. The players didn't find out about it until they got to the fish tank, though they could have if they looked closer into the files in the MET computers. and for another team I critically glitched and they found the security hacker in grossed in an MMO oblivious to what was going on in the node around him, yea he got fired. All in all its a simple rule but it adds a level of unexpectedness to the game and we enjoy it. This is also when the dreck will sometimes hit the fan and identities will sometimes get revealed, but all in all fun.

So, those are a couple of thing I use but onto your post.

New players will quickly become experienced in a game with these types of rules, but remember to start off less strict and work your way back to stricter as they are new and have a learning curve to go through. Though that being said, my players wanted to dive into the deep end and lost over 23 characters in the first year learning the ropes. Most of which happened during the beginning of the year and some due to the complication rule going bad for them but after the first month they became very adept at, sticking to the shadows and they also became better at adapting to changing conditions on the fly. As for the fish tank, my players have learned to gather as much info as they can and that legwork is a must when pulling a job so they knew it was a tank and they knew how much it weighed and so on. They then made a plan using their years of running in this style of game and did the job according to that plan. When the one team got to the tank and realized one of the fish was missing though... ah good times.

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GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #8 on: <06-23-13/2322:59> »
Since they want a Black Trenchcoat game, or think they want one, yet don't quite have the common sense to pull it off, then you need to view everything as a chance to teach them the ropes. The Mr. Johnson is a great tool for this. He can out right give them plans when giving out the runs. He can also give out special directions concerning things you think will cause the players trouble. He can reward for actions he approved of. He can also toss out praise.

You can also go over the runs after missions and talk to the players about their actions. It's only a big problem if after being explained why their actions were stupid that they repeat them.

Since it is a Black Trenchcoat game, there has to be punishments for stupid behaviors and dangers in the world. However, there are some tricks to helping out the clueless. (Assuming you want that, of course. Some BT GMs have the attitude that the clueless should meet grisly ends) You can have the world punish them in lesser fashions than all out TPK. Contacts and family members can die. Money and reputation can be lost. Enemies can prosper due to PC failures and foolishness. (A cutscene of their enemy pulling out the bubbly and celebrating a victory over the PCs can be quite motivating)

And even if the PCs are really doing loads of stupid and losing tons of money, you can kind of put a bandaid on the whole campaign by keeping rewards high when they do actually do their jobs well. This way the players aren't becoming all out homeless from all their failures.

It can get to be too much though, and there are sadly times a TPK is required. That's usually not the best way to make people play your campaigns though, so all other avenues should be searched first.

Another option is when the PCs have had a few failed runs, to get have the Johnsons give them a few milk runs. Low paying, easy, and with some withering contempt for their abilities thrown in.
« Last Edit: <06-23-13/2327:56> by GiraffeShaman »

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« Reply #9 on: <06-24-13/0724:23> »
To me, it sounds like your players have confused "dystopian" with "amoral"...

"dystopian" means it's a bleak, cold, and help/hopeless world (and a few other definitions to boot!)

"amoral" means there is a break in the common sense of society and civility. (again, there are a few more definitions!)

Or, it could be that your players like playing Asshats instead of whitehats.... (or grey hats...)


As a GM, I find/found that the 20 questions part of character generation from previous editions did a good job of giving the players a sense of idea about the morals and compunctions of their characters, while at the time showed me who was probably going to be my first "example" death/kill off.

I think its time to sit your players down and have a little talk about their play style.... And if they want to be 'the good guys' or 'the bad guys' or 'the grey guys'...

If they want to be 'the good guys' then actions like kidnapping, random violence, and carnage should be options of last resort.... Sure these missions will come up, (and they may pass on them, or take them! They ARE runners after all, not saints!) but should be looking to minimize trauma as much as can be expected)... And if they stray from this path, you (as GM) smack them down with increasing force and hurt.

If they want to be 'the bad guys', that's cool too. It just means you have to design your missions with more if a leaning to immoral, depraved standards.... Increase the gruesome level every game a notch.... (have Tanimous contact them with a 'harvest' list of people who match patients that are willing to pay for those organs, have crime synidcates contact them with a list if people and detailed examples they want handed out.... And go down hill from there) but remember (and remind!) that while "bad things happen to good people", "unmentionable things happen to bad people!".... And don't pull any punches when the shoe drops!!!

If they want to "the grey hats", then it's time to talk about what the characters think is right and wrong, what boundaries they won't cross, and how they justify what they do do they "can sleep at night". Then YOU make a judgement call on what color of 'grey' they are wearing!! (note: ask 100 players what Color of the 3 they are, and 80 will say 'grey'.... Ask them some moralistic questions..... And they come out either lighter or darker... So this is really just a way to find out if they are playing douchebags or Han Solos, or Richie Cunninghams)

•••••

In the end, it's up to you to decide what direction to take the game, modify it to the players as best you can.... And let the cards fall as they may.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Redwulfe

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« Reply #10 on: <06-24-13/0856:13> »
Speaking of alternate punishments besides character death, take a look at the noteriaty rules. Not only is this a method of giving out points for amoral and reckless actions but you can also use this to add some house rules to the game, for example. Loyalty of contacts can never exceed 6-noteriaty, and when you gain a noteriaty all your contacts loyalty drops by one. It works kind of like magic loss. This works well in my games, but that is also because loyalty is really important in my game due to the responce table. One of the levels is a random contact of x loyalty or lower gives up the PC name or hangouts. I do give out free contact points at creation (charisma x 10) though.
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Nobody

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« Reply #11 on: <06-28-13/0420:43> »
First, did any of them take Common Sense?

Remember that while your PCs are experienced criminals living outside of society, presumably most of your players are not . . .

If someone possesses Common Sense they might get a tingle of the old spidey-sense when they're about to get their names plastered onto a warrant, or worse. While all you're required to say as a GM by RAW is "You might be foregetting something . . ." I happily give characters dice rolls to figure it out, to represent that the characters in-game experience with shady characters and dirty deeds is most assuredly most extensive than the players.

If no one invested in CS (the best 5 BP you'll ever spend IMHO), then let them run with it, but let them know where they mis-stepped. I like to do cut scenes in Lone Star offices, or CorpSec briefing rooms. Particularly flagrant runs can end with an LS Task Force forming to bring them in, for instance. If the keep their trenchcoats on, then they get to peek in on the baffled authorities.

Do a little "group research" into types of runs. By this I mean get together and watch caper flicks, spy thrillers, crime noir, shoot 'em ups, etc. so that they know the tropes to use, and have seen some examples for how it gets done either way. It can also help solidify their character styles and their approach to the Shadows. Is your group more MI-5 or A-team? XXX or Cypher? Nikita or XIII? Burn Notice Season 1 or Burn Notice Season 3?

And don't forget, this is fantasy cyber-punk. At some point, every group will sprout a mohawk and rampage. They key part (and the seeds of great stories) is what happens as a result?

r4nd0m

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« Reply #12 on: <06-28-13/0822:06> »
I tend to give the Common Sense quality for free to anyone who is playing Shadowrun for the first time.  That way I can justify a bit of handholding.