[GiraffeShaman]

Even murdering contacts is walking dangerous ground, but it depends on the table you're playing at. A better way to go about it would be to make attempts on their contacts. The difference is that it's not a 100 percent instant death. In fact, you can have contacts calling for help and stuff. It empowers the players and is also a good excuse for some pink mohawk action. And they're probaly going to be motivated enough, especially if the guy is also having some enemy hacker play nasty tricks at the same time, and maybe sending some spirits to harass as well.

Players hate being made helpless by fiat nearly as much as character death by fiat. There are players that are paranoid about the power a GM has, so don't live up to their worst expectations.

[Michael Chandra]

Get some contacts arrested. Have others escape with their places burned down. It sends the message, pisses off the runners and doesn't make them want to strangle you.  Much.

[Ghoulfodder]

So, inspired by a certain TV series (you'll either recognize it or you won't, I won't be more specific so as to avoid spoilers), I've been toying with the idea of putting the player characters in a fairly helpless position (in a well-respected meet location that does not permit anyone to bring in weapons, which would normally be safe-ish for meets) where they believe they are safe, then having one of the bad guys (with whom they're trying to make peace) turn on them and try to kill them all. It'd involve either a hostile takeover or blackmail or bribe or something for the owner of the meeting location, something that'd make it worth destroying their reputation as a safe meeting spot.

Then, once everything seems calmest, the bad guys reveal that their guns have not been taken from them, and they go in all-out murder mode. Full-auto suppresion fire, Powerballs, grenades, Spirit engulfment, the works. The team's mage and/or adept might survive, but anyone who depends on guns or their military armor will be pretty well frakked.

The goal of this will be to make an enemy that the players will be driven to want to flat-out destroy, whether they're being hired to or not. Make them self-motivated to accomplish a specific goal for themselves. To help offset any hurt feelings from the PKing, I would give the characters rolled to replace the killed ones some sort of bonus (starting with an extra 60 Karma during chargen, possibly), on the condition that the new character is someone who had a connection to one of the killed characters, who would be motivated to seek revenge.

I don't have any specific questions for the board here, just putting it forward for some general input.

The only problem with this is it out right kills many, if not all the party. That's not a good position to put yourself in unless you know you're group is up for it and don't mind their characters being all killed to further the story.

Something I picked up from D&D 4th DMG2 is the idea of giving the players some new simple characters to play and having the big bad come and slaughter them. Allow them successes, but ultimately about buying time for others or taking down one two lieutenants against the odds.

You then give the players the sense of how nasty, treacherous and dangerous the big bad is and a personal sense that they want to take them out, without actually having to harm a single character.

Apply that to shadowrun, by making it a group of aquaintence runners / contacts etc... people who will have at least some meaning to the party. The players get to have fun with a fight to the death against the odds whilst playing something a little different for a while. And you build your story. Perhaps have the players invited, but unable to go because of a mission. So not only do they lose friends (without burning too much of their contact resources), but it's more personal, because it could have been them but for chance.

[markelphoenix]

Easy solution. They go to the meet. Trap is sprung. Suddenly, rivals to the betrayers/enemy-group drop in. Mexican stand off. Runners hoops are saved by this opposing element side and now owe them a favor. Enemy groups betrayal stands out starkly in their mind, how closely they came to getting geeked for so foolishly trusting this enemy.

1) Runners now have an even healthier distrust and paranoia around any 'safe meets'.
2) You have established even firmer hate for the enemy group.
3) You've established an ally/frienemy through which they can exact revenge on the enemy group.

[Ricochet]

I'm more a fan of playing a storyline campaign with a beginning, middle, and end.  When I GM, my players understand that, and when the end comes, the characters will be done one way or another.  Since we have that understanding in my games, killing parties isn't that big an issue.

Admitted, I never did do a TPK in Shadowrun, but I've had a number of TPK's in other games.

I even used to run a once a year event where everyone was guaranteed to die in a D&D game.

[RHat]

I'm more a fan of playing a storyline campaign with a beginning, middle, and end.  When I GM, my players understand that, and when the end comes, the characters will be done one way or another.  Since we have that understanding in my games, killing parties isn't that big an issue.

Hm...  See, in that style of campaign (well, really, all styles of campaign, but that especially), I generally have notions of the story (beginning, middle, and end, getting less defined the farther out it is) for my character, and a GM cutting that off before it reaches its end because he thinks a party wipe is a good story tool would piss me right off.

[Ricochet]

The way we (mostly I) run, when the story is done, so is your character.  You can keep it, but it won't get used anymore.  I don't tend to run open ended campaigns, and when the story arc for a campaign ends, it's time to do something else with a new theme and a new party.

[RHat]

That's fair, but two things:  First, that doesn't at all apply to pulling a TPK "for story reasons" in the middle of the campaign.  Second:  They might not get to PLAY that character again, but it can be pretty awesome to bring back old PC's as NPC's - as can a number of other possibilities that are cut off by the imposed TPK.  Character death should always be a result of the player's action, but the GM's decree.

[Nal0n]

TPK suxx ... any time ... with any good story.

I f I cannot play my character up to AT LEAST 500 Karma, why should I even bother with that 25 page background History?

[emsquared]

TPK suxx ... any time ... with any good story.

I f I cannot play my character up to AT LEAST 500 Karma, why should I even bother with that 25 page background History?

Not to derail, but have you seriously had even 1 game go to 500 Karma?

[Black]

My guys are up to 100 karma, well, almost and thats after two years of running games every two weeks.  I really can't imagine how long it would take to get to 500 karma... unless karma rewards are very genenious and you play really often.

[Reaver]

Well, the longest that I have had a game last was 3.5 years, playing twice a week for about 6 to 8 hours a game. By the end of it, I think the only original surviving character had close to 2500 karma. (which made intergrating the "newbies" an interesting event to say the least).... But as a standing hose rule, a retired character is worth 75% of his earned Karma and a dead character is worth 50% or earned karma....

But then again I run open ended campaigns that last as long as there is interest in them lasting (I am good with coming up with plot hooks, missions, red herrings, twists, turns, backstabs, feints and ideas to keep even the longest game fresh)... Sometimes Shit happens and a PC dies. Sometimes I have to make an example and KILL a PC..... but I never plan out a TPK... the odds are just too stacked in my favor to do so. It cheapens the efforts and work done by the players with their characters.


that said: Everything else is up for grabs. Contacts, equipment, homes, wives, girlfriends, children.... they all can/do feel my wraith WHEN the players earn such tactics.

[NinthSphere]

Yeah, if this were D&D or any other game with a revolving door to the afterlife, I would say go for it. Being SR, I'm with everyone else.

One option you could run with though is to have them go to the meet with expendables like the sample characters. Make them allies of some sort of the actual pc characters. Once they get killed, the pcs will still have motivation to pursue the villain. It does take away some of the surprise, but I can guarantee you'll have significantly less pissed players.

[raggedhalo]

why should I ever bother with that 25 page background History?

FTFY 

25 pages is, in my view, way too much information for any player to reasonably expect their GM to include or reference in the campaign.  Unless, I guess, it's a solo campaign all about your PC.  Otherwise, the 20 Questions from the book, ideally done as bullet points, has always suited me fine.