[Xenon]

On the forums there seem to be some confusion about grenades and how aoe work. For once I think the rules are pretty straight forward, but I think it is best to post it here anyway. The actual question is:

Q: Do defenders get to roll against an AoE?


This is how I read the existing rules:

The chapter Projectiles on p.181 state that "Ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing weapons. Some special rules also apply".

A) Ranged combat rules apply
B) There might also be special rules in addition to normal ranged combat rules.


A Ranged Combat rules use the basic combat sequence from p.173
1) Declare
2) Attack
3) Defend
4) Apply Effect

Where  Step 2) is "The attacker rolls Combat Skill + Attribute +/- modifiers [Limit]"

And Step 3) is "The defender roll Reaction + Intuition +/- modifiers..." and "...Compare the results to the hits of the attacker. If the attacker scores more hits than the defender, the attack hits the target. Note the net hits (the number of hits that exceed the defender’s hits) and move on to the second step..." (followed by rules how to calculate modified armor value, modified damage value and final damage).

One specific defending modifier is Targeted by an Area-Effect Attack p.190
Dodging explosions is not as easy as it seems in the movies. Apply a –2 modifier when trying to defend against weapons like spells, grenades, rockets, or missiles with a blast or area effect.


B Under Throwing Weapons there is a subcategory for Grenades.
Grenades on p.181 have a special rule that state: Three hits on the test means no scatter, but it is still possible to hit the target if the scatter roll is low and the thrower got some hits.
- There is a chance you hit the target even if you don't get 3 hits (not net hits)
- The scatter roll need to be low (or target might be outside of blast radius)
- You need to have at least one hit (as you need to exceed the defender’s hits in step 3)


A) Ranged combat rules apply
B) There might also be special rules in addition to normal ranged combat rules.

A + B gives:

1) Declare
2) Attack + Check for Scatter
3) Defend
4) Apply

In the specific example of throwing a grenade step 2) would translate to:
Attacker roll Throwing Weapons + Agility [Physical]
Specific grenade rule state that if you get less than 3 hits (not net hits) there is a risk that the grenade scatter.

And step 3) would translate into
Defender roll reaction + intuition - 2 (for grenade being an aoe effect)
And then you ...Compare the results to the hits of the attacker. If the attacker scores more hits than the defender, the attack hits the target...

My answer to the question would be: Yes, defenders get to roll against an AoE per normal combat rules with a -2 aoe modifier

[Xenon]

I am aware, I know you can sacrifice 5 Initiative if you do not have a Free Action available. The question is whether, during and only during your own turn, you can trade in a Simple Action to perform a Free Action during your turn. These are simply two examples where you might want to do that.

There are some free actions that have simple action counterparts.

For example, you can change the fire mode on an assault rifle from SA to FA with a free action (in this case the Change Linked Device Mode) by sending a mental command via DNI. There are not rules that let you send this mental command via DNI as a simple action. And there are no rules that explicit say you can't do it either (hence your question i guess). But in this case you can take the simple action Change Gun Mode and manually switch your assault rifle from SA to FA.

Most things you can do with free actions such as Change Linked Device Mode and Eject Smartgun Clip can be done with a simple action, such as Change Gun Mode or Change Device Mode. At least as long as there is a manual "switch" you can interact with instead of the mental switch used in the free action. Other actions such as Drop Object can be done as a Simple action with Pick up/Put down object.


Also, some free actions can be allowed to be taken more than once if GMs allows it. I think the examples they used were Speak Phrase or Gesture while running at the same time.



If you can take (other) multiple free actions as simple actions instead is still a valid question though. Interested in hearing the answer.


My gut feeling answer to the question is No
Why?
Because the:
- Limit of 1 free action act as a tactical limit (so you can't both run and attack multiple targets at the same time)
- Free actions you can take as a simple action have a simple action you can pick.
- Free actions that you might need when you already used your free action have an interrupt action you can use.

[Michael Chandra]

I'd rather not get into a debate in the topic meant for the official FAQ. However, note that one of my examples involved using a free action before your own action phase, namely dropping prone when someone starts with suppressive and wanting to call a shot after that.

[Aaron]

On the forums there seem to be some confusion about grenades and how aoe work. For once I think the rules are pretty straight forward, but I think it is best to post it here anyway. The actual question is:

Q: Do defenders get to roll against an AoE?

No for dodging, yes for damage resistance (excluding direct combat spells, of course).

For grenades specifically, if the guy shooting at you is using a motion sensor trigger, then you get to dodge normally because she's trying to hit you. As a side note, the motion sensor on grenades is a full-stop (or mostly-full-stop) kind of detector, so just grazing your target or skipping a grenade off of the ground won't set it off in this triggering mode.

[Chrona]

No for dodging, yes for damage resistance (excluding direct combat spells, of course).

Q.What about Indirect AOE Combat Spells like Blast? The example has some gangers rolling dodge

While i'm at it

Q At Char Gen can you buy a Custom Cyberlimb that has Attributes OVER your current natural Rating, without using Enhancements. (An Elf With AGI 4 buying a Custom Limb with AGI 6)

Q What happens when you roll under 3 hits on an AOE Indirect combat spell but still more hits then the defender (if they can defend). Does this all ways make the damage to resist drop to Force?

[Xenon]

No for dodging

Did you read the spoiler...?

If this is really true(?!) then we need an errata to correct the following:
1) clarification on p.181 that defenders does not get to roll dodge in step 3 of the combat sequence on p.173
2) table on p.477 is wrong
3) combat spell rules on p.283 regarding indirect aoe spells are wrong
4) example on p.283 is wrong
5) table on p.189 is wrong
6) damage and passengers on p.205 need clarification
7) defender modification on p.190 is wrong

It also make grenades really really powerful.

Dealing more damage than a sniper rifle (even before confined space mods) and all you only need is 3 hits (not net hits) on your throw to always land and detonate the grenade within 1m of your target.

Or 3 hits with a semi-automatic burst using an ArmTech MGL-12 for a staggering 24P (before confined space mods) and -4AP and can be used up to 500m. No way of avoiding the blast, even with an interrupt action or full defense and over 20 dice since you don't get to roll them. On average your target will die even with 40+ dice when resisting damage. Best of all.... Anyone can do that right out of chargen. All you need is to invest 6 points in heavy weapons,  get an agility of 3+ and spend 7,000¥ for the weapon, an airbust link, an imaging scope and some grenades. gg.

[Aaron]

Q.What about Indirect AOE Combat Spells like Blast? The example has some gangers rolling dodge

Also no. Which example are you looking at?

Q At Char Gen can you buy a Custom Cyberlimb that has Attributes OVER your current natural Rating, without using Enhancements. (An Elf With AGI 4 buying a Custom Limb with AGI 6)

Yes.

Q What happens when you roll under 3 hits on an AOE Indirect combat spell but still more hits then the defender (if they can defend). Does this all ways make the damage to resist drop to Force?

You miss by a certain distance. 2D6 meters, if I remember. There is no defender roll; it's a Success Test.

Did you read the spoiler...?

Yes. The modifier is an error leftover from SR4.

If this is really true(?!) then we need an errata to correct the following:
1) clarification on p.181 that defenders does not get to roll dodge in step 3 of the combat sequence on p.173
2) table on p.477 is wrong
3) combat spell rules on p.283 regarding indirect aoe spells are wrong
4) example on p.283 is wrong
5) table on p.189 is wrong
6) damage and passengers on p.205 need clarification
7) defender modification on p.190 is wrong

That looks like a familiar set of errata. If you can hold on until after Gen Con, you'll get a more official answer, but until then it's only us lowly freelancers that have any time to offer help.

It also make grenades really really powerful.

Dealing more damage than a sniper rifle (even before confined space mods) and all you only need is 3 hits (not net hits) on your throw to always land and detonate the grenade within 1m of your target.

Indeed, grenades are dangerous weapons. The modern grenade is advertised with a five-meter kill radius and a casualty radius of fifteen meters. Although you're not factoring in range penalties, which come up a lot for all but the strongest throwers.

[Xenon]

Also no. Which example are you looking at?

Probably p.283

That looks like a familiar set of errata. If you can hold on until after Gen Con, you'll get a more official answer, but until then it's only us lowly freelancers that have any time to offer help.

Fair enough. I might have some apology to do in that other thread after Gen Con then

[Chrona]

Also no. Which example are you looking at?

Probably p.283

Got it in one Xenon, yeah Aaron it was this one. Also Thank you very much for all the answers, much appreciated!

One of the gangers has cornered Rikki the Rat
Shaman, so Rikki has no choice but to throw down
some mojo on him. Since there’s only one, he casts
Mana Bolt at Force 4. With Magic 5 and Spellcasting
4, Rikki gets 4 hits while the ganger with his Willpower
3 manages to get 1 hit. This means that the ganger
takes 3 points of Stun damage (equal to Rikki’s net hits
since this is a Direct Combat spell). The ganger gets
no resistance and no dodge.
The second ganger has caught up with the first,
and Rikki must step up his game. Rikki switches to
Blast at Force 7. A risky maneuver for, but he wants
to end things quickly so he can curl up and hide. He
rolls a miraculous 5 hits. This is an Indirect Combat
spell, so its damage will be equal to Force 7 + Rikki’s
net hits. Ganger 1 is a little out of it and only gets 2 hits.
The second ganger is quicker with 4 hits. The three
net hits make the total damage hitting the first ganger
10, while the second must attempt to absorb 8 points
of damage. Both are wearing armor jackets (12), but
with such a high Force, the AP of the spell reduces
the jacket’s protection to 5. Both gangers have Body
5, so they each roll 10 dice to resist damage. Ganger
1 rolls 3 hits and takes a total of 7 boxes of Stun damage.
Combined with the Mana Bolt, he is knocked out.
Ganger 2 rolls better with 5 hits and only takes 3 boxes
of stun. Ganger 2 figures it’s not worth taking on Rikki
on his own and runs off to get help. Rikki hurts more
from casting that spell than from being punched by the
gangers, as his nose is bleeding from taking 4 boxes of
Stun damage from the drain.

[/spoiler]

[Xenon]

If you are not allowed to defend against AoE;

Q Will indirect AoE spells increase DV with number of hits*?

instead of increasing DV with number of net hits* - as the rule currently state




(*) As long as the magician get more than 3 hits (not net hits).

[Michael Chandra]

So to be clear:

- You put 3 wireless High explosive grenades in your grenade launcher.
- You subscribe each grenade to a different member of the team.
- The grenade launcher has no range penalty within 50 meters, -1 within 100.
- You fire a Short Burst as Complex Action, firing all 3 grenades.
- You make a Heavy Weapons + Agility (3) test with the other modifiers.
- Defenders do not get to make any defensive action until their own turn.
- No penalties apply from targets Running/Sprinting, Cover or Total Defense because you target a location, not a moving person.
- After 5 meters, the grenades are armed.
- If you succesfully make the test, the grenades land at the right spot.
- Each member uses their Free Action to detonate 'their' grenade simultaneously.
- The AP becomes the best and becomes 1 better per extra explosion.
- The blast adds half the value of all lowest DVs to the highest DV for 1 combined value.
- 3x 16/-2 becomes 16+8+8/-2-1-1 = 32P/-4 damage.
- If a hacker hacks one of the commlinks in advance, he can let one of the 3 explode earlier, after it has travelled 5 meters and gets armed. He needs 1 Mark to perform that Free Action.
- A jammer would create a negative dice pool modifier, but there is no die-roll involved in triggering the grenades, so it has no effect.

Are all these steps correct?

Q: Can you change the wireless mode of multiple identical devices in one go with an identical command? E.g. turn off multiple cameras, eject multiple clips, explode multiple wireless grenades?

[Aaron]

Except that there are a couple-three ways for a hacker to mess things up, and that the wireless link is a wireless bonus and can be blocked with enough noise, Operation Grenade Ballet is a go.

As to the multiple command thing ... um ... maybe? Strictly by the rules, probably not, but it sounds like the kind of thing I'd handwave as a GM.

[Xenon]

Or just get an airburst link that will have all 3 nades detonating at the same combat initiative score (=multiple simultaneous blasts).

But in this scenario you really want to protect your launcher and your individual grenades with a strong firewall plus high intuition, willpower and logic as there are quite a few ways to tackle this from the Matrix (get a mark on the grenade owner's commlink and use that to spoof a detonate command to the grenade mid air, get two marks on the launcher and control it to fire a grenade while just hanging on the back of the troll, get a mark on individual grenades and then delay an action and use it to command the grenade to explode while in mid-air, brick the entire grenade launcher....)

A decker can also temporary turn his deck into a jammer and you can also buy jammers in the gear section. seem as if the Wireless data jack provide 1 point of noise reduction, but besides that it seem as if the only way to counter a jammer is by using a RCC set for noice reduction rather than sharing and if you have a RCC you can also compensate for noise on the fly taking a complex action electronic warfare test to reduce noise even further.

As long as you can generate more than 2 noise after noise compensation around the grenade (device rating 2) or around the launcher (also device rating 2) then the grenade can not be detonated wireless.

[Michael Chandra]

The grenade launcher wouldn't need to be wireless, though, either the launcher or the grenades have to be.

So any high-profile target will always be protected with jamming to prevent wireless triggering of explosives of any kind, runners should always carry jammers if they lack a decker, and that takes care of getting grenades tossed at you that explode before you get a chance to move away, unless they're fired after you're out of passes and then you're SoL.

[Xenon]

(Grenades that use the Built-in timer does not explode at the end of the combat turn. They explode in the next combat turn on the same initiative score as when it was thrown, minus 10 - So you still have time to move away. But built in timed grenades are great to combine with suppressive fire to shape the battlefield and to create no-win situations for your opponents).