[bull30548]

Spirits: I used to use them to scare my street sams and make the mage just that much more useful.  Now the group just shoots them up and that is it.

If you get issues when you throw three to five flash-bangs at a party and don't give them any chances to escape from the blast zone, then maybe you shouldn't be doing that. Why are you even throwing that many at them in the first place? But yes, if you make characters soak 10S damage three to five times, they tend to go unconscious.

As for spirits: are you using the 5e Immunity rules properly? If we compare an Ares Alpha with regular ammo to a Force 6 Spirit of Man with 1 net hit, you've got 12P/-2 versus Hardened Armor 10 and 7 Body: that's 17 dice and 5 bonus hits on the soak test, so the spirit will take about 1.6 damage on average. So while it's true that with heavy guns or more expensive ammo, mundanes can now take out spirits, there's still the matters of hitting them in the first place and the spirits typically not being alone either.

Could you refer me to the page that states that a Spirit of Man has Hardened Armor Power or any spirit for that matter because I could not find that in the book. or was that a errata that I missed.  I have to admit I am still reading through the book so there is stuff I know I must of missed.

Thank you for the clarification of Flash bangs but this was also to have my group also not use this exploit in their favor because see they believe in suppression through superior firepower and well Flash bangs are pretty cheap and are, based on the rules right now the SUPERIOR firepower item.

[ZeConster]

All Spirits have Materialization, and per the description of Materialization, this means they get Immunity to Normal Weapons when materialized, which gives them Hardened Armor equal to twice their Essence (so equal to twice their Force) against non-magical attacks.

[Reaver]

All Spirits have Materialization, and per the description of Materialization, this means they get Immunity to Normal Weapons when materialized, which gives them Hardened Armor equal to twice their Essence (so equal to twice their Force) against non-magical attacks.

And also, Half that armor is treated as auto successes in the damage resistance test. (so a force 6 spirit has 12 hardened armor... and possibly 6 auto successes on its damage resistance test!)

But don't worry that you couldn't find it. All the spirit and animal abilities are lumped together under "animal powers" and start on page 394... But so spirits they make you jump through several hoops....

First you have to look at Materialization
which takes you to Immunity... then the subset of immunity listed as normal weapons...
then to hardened armor


its very convoluted

[bull30548]

Thank you!  I appreciate it.  I knew I was missing something.

Now please someone tell me Flash bangs has some wacky path I haven't found yet. 

This is mainly cause my players would exploit the crap out of this.

[Michael Chandra]

((Are they throwing timed, wireless or motion sensor? Are you equipping enemies with Damper cyberears? Are they actually not that easily all-hit with flashbangs? Are the cops called the second so many explosions go off?))

[Reaver]

sadly, with flash bangs and grenades the only limiter is "common sense" and "world reactions"

Meaning, you have to look at the world and how it would react to such things. FBs make A LOT of noise! They are going to attract a lot of unwanted attention! (Same as grenades).  Also, that attention isn't just going to be your typical beat cop... it's going to be HTR teams.. which means heavy ordinance and hardened armor, lots of drones, and magical support.


Corp Security isn't going to be throwing around grenades (well maybe flash bangs) because of collateral damage... they are there to protect Corp property, not blow it to bits with explosives. At the same time, if Runners are using grenades on Corp Security, they are breaking the unwritten rules of Shadowruns (meaning: "We know shadowruns are a cost of doing business, and we will try to stop you, but if you keep it professional, we won't hold a grudge")

(the larger the body count, and collateral property damage, the more runners "force" a Corp's hand into revenge tactics..... After all, losing a prototype is just business... losing a prototype, AND two dozen dead employees..... yea, someone's gotta pay!)


IRL Explosives kill through the compression wave. The wave ruptures the alveoli, preventing them from collecting oxygen, and filling the lungs with blood. In effect, your drown in your own blood and die of asphyxiation. Often with out any other marks on the body. Then there is the shrapnel.. which just tears through the body, severing arteries and organs...

IRL, the only REAL defense against grenades is to NOT be in the area of effect, or, baring that, make sure there is a hardened structure between you and the explosion. which is why always fighting from cover is a great idea (but even that may not save you)


Basically, with grenades, the only defense is to clear the area... which with many of the wireless grenades in SR can be almost impossible.

[spuwdsda]

How are astral attacks on the astral forms of active magical objects handled?

For example: A projecting mage spots the astral form of an active focus. The mage lacks Disenchanting or otherwise decides not to use Disenchanting against the focus. Instead he hits it with his weapon focus. The owner of the attacked focus is unaware of the attack, he is not using astral perception or projecting and is sitting down still.

This is an unopposed attack, hitting the object for 15 DV.

How is this attack resolved? Does it make a difference if the damage is Physical or Stun?

[bull30548]

Thank you again for the advice but based on the way the rules are written dampeners and flare compensation does not negate flash bangs.  The full body armor suit could negate it just for the fact the stun damage would be going against the armor rating.  Though that might be what I am missing is the fact that armor is more universal now I might be missing that aspect that a body+armor check could negate the whole of damage.

[ZeConster]

It really depends on the circumstances and what trigger mechanism you use (timed can be easily avoided or thrown back, wireless can be jammed). A low-armor mage or face will take significant Stun damage from a flashbang (although a Physical Barrier spell might be able to block it since it's only Stun damage, meaning it won't break the barrier, but on the other hand the noise might just go through it), while someone with Full body armor (including the helmet) will have 14 dice from armor alone even after the -4 AP, so if you add 5 Body (high for a human, minimum for a troll), that's about 6-7 hits on average, so only 3-4 Stun damage post-soak each time.

[Reaver]

it really also depends on what you rule as "protection" from a flashbang.


Flashbangs produce a brilliant light and a very brief, but very loud "bang"

The idea is to overwhelm the hearing and eyes of the defender (and in real life, this overload has been known to render people unconscious!)


If you are feeling generous as a GM you could rule that flare compensation and audio dampeners provide a bonus to Flashbangs. But this would be a houserule.

[Michael Chandra]

If you are feeling generous as a GM you could rule that flare compensation and audio dampeners provide a bonus to Flashbangs. But this would be a houserule.

"The damper adds a +2 dice pool bonus to resisting sonic attacks, including flashbangs."

[Reaver]

If you are feeling generous as a GM you could rule that flare compensation and audio dampeners provide a bonus to Flashbangs. But this would be a houserule.

"The damper adds a +2 dice pool bonus to resisting sonic attacks, including flashbangs."

well, there you go, an actual book RAW bonus to resisting FBs



on a side note, I hope Aaron gets back soon (last post date of Sep 1) he only has what 20 pages of questions to answer

[dragrubis]

Is the exceptionnal ability (up to 13 in a skill 7 at starting) a little over paid?

It's the same as the cost of the exceptionnal attribute but just usable for one pool and it as no effect on any limit's...

[RHat]

It has significant interactions with a wide array of things which key off skill rating.

[dragrubis]

Can you explain yourself on that? The aptitude quality applies only on a unique skill.

Where exceptional attribute may change a lot of dice pools.