[Sternenwind]

...

1. Depends on the aircraft or other tools they use.
2. No, Immunity is tied to Materialization.
3. Yes, since they are not immune.
4. What do you mean?
5. Increase Attribute spells may become redundant, but the possession itself does not dispel any spells.
6. It should be able to. You just have to be careful to adjust the attributes again when the spell is ended.
7. You calculate Initiative as given with Fx2 +modifier +2d6. An Increased Reaction from the possession thereby has no Influence on Initiative.

The thing is … I, no we, cannot trust the Street Grimoire.

1.   It is spirit a ability. Possession does not say that spirits are losing it.
2.   They could just forget to add this sentence to possession.
3.   Yes, but do drugs work like they would on normal living beings?
4.   In 4 you created another being and with that every sustained spell broke.
5.   Yes and again it did in the past.
6.   No plan, but if the spell is not canceled how is it all work out with the “shapechange replace your body story*”?
7.   The Modifier in the book are bound to the physical attributes of the spirits in the book, but possession spirits have no fixed physical attribute. And, apparently, you can profit from passive enhancements of the vessel**.


*Cyber- and bioware vanish into the limbo
**Are synaptic booster passive?

[RHat]

2. Have possession spirits immunity against natural weapons?

Are we certain there's not a rule that grants it?  Don't have Street Grimoire yet, but in SR4 it was in a sidebar - and that would be a pretty massive nerf...

[Sternenwind]

@RHat
There is no such rule, but we know this book is full of failure and thats why i ask.

[Lucean]

RHat, I also took a look at Street Magic when this question was first raised. And nothing in possession relates to that.

1. How was it in SR4? Since the part about not having any weight is more or less fluff text and not mentioned in any way for possession, why do you think a possessed being would somehow become weightless? I would approach it the other way: It's not stated that they keep this ability

2. Of course they might have forgotten it. But who knows? They don't get it by RAW.

3. Are drugs supposed to work differently for paracritters? Drugs are toxins with both a positive and a negative effect. Since they don't make exceptions on what they can affect, you could feed some Kamikaze to a possessed being

4. Vessel+Spirit count as single dual-natured entity. The former beings don't cease to exist, they are merged. I don't think that physical spells would be ended, as they are cast at a physical representation, which does not change. I could understand that manaspells fizzle, because the targeted aura has changed. But I have no reference in the rules.
For the case of the vessel itself sustaining spells, I think they would end.

5. I didn't find anything related neither in the possession power nor in the sidebar of Street Magic. Your source?

6. Shapechange does not replace your body. It transforms it. Cyberware is not excluded from shapechange, so it would be unaccessible while shapechanged.

7. The modifiers are random. Fire should have +4 instead of +3, Man should have +3 instead of +2 and it gets even worse because Guardian has +1 instead of +3, Guidance has +0 instead of +2.
For Fire and Man it may be because their higher Intuition is not factored in, but both Guardian and Guidance spirits receive a higher bonus to their REAction than their Initiative bonus indicates.
That's why:

You calculate Initiative as given with Fx2 +modifier +2d6. An Increased Reaction from the possession thereby has no Influence on Initiative.

[RHat]

RHat, I also took a look at Street Magic when this question was first raised. And nothing in possession relates to that.

When a spirit possesses a vessel, the com-bined being that results is dual-natured, has
Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 289, SR4),
and boasts all of the spirit’s powers and skills.

Sidebar on page 102.

[T]

This power allows the critter to speed up or slow down the target’s movement rate. [...] If used only on the critter itself, this power can be used anywhere. The critter can multiply or divide the target’s movement rate by up to its Magic attribute.

I have a few questions regarding the Movement critter power. I didn't read the whole thread, but I searched it and I don't think those questions have been answered yet.

1- Does the Movement critter power only apply to the "walk rate" and "run rate"?

2- Does it also apply to the "sprint increase" (i.e. meters per hit)?

3- What about jumping? Does it multiply distances jumped too? My gut tells me that it should, but you could argue that the Movement power is more of a fast-forward you-don't-jump-any-farther-but-you-get-there-faster kind of thing than a regular-physics you-run-really-fast-so-you-jump-really-far kind of thing. Not sure which one is RAI.

4- What about falling damage? If you are falling 200 meters and are slowed down by a Force 8 Air Spirit, what kind of damage are you facing when you land? Do you divide the distance fallen by 8?

Thanks.

[Lucean]

When a spirit possesses a vessel, the com-bined being that results is dual-natured, has
Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 289, SR4),
and boasts all of the spirit’s powers and skills.

Sidebar on page 102.

Yes ... I did say I looked at Street Magic, didn't I?
But there is nothing in Street Grimoire duplicating what we had in Street Magic.
Inhabitation has it spelled out, when they get/keep Immunity, so it looks more and more like a deliberate omission.

[RHat]

When a spirit possesses a vessel, the com-bined being that results is dual-natured, has
Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 289, SR4),
and boasts all of the spirit’s powers and skills.

Sidebar on page 102.

Yes ... I did say I looked at Street Magic, didn't I?
But there is nothing in Street Grimoire duplicating what we had in Street Magic.
Inhabitation has it spelled out, when they get/keep Immunity, so it looks more and more like a deliberate omission.

When a spirit possesses a vessel, the com-bined being that results is dual-natured, has
Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 289, SR4),
and boasts all of the spirit’s powers and skills.

Sidebar on page 102.

Yes ... I did say I looked at Street Magic, didn't I?
But there is nothing in Street Grimoire duplicating what we had in Street Magic.
Inhabitation has it spelled out, when they get/keep Immunity, so it looks more and more like a deliberate omission.

I read your post as saying you didn't see it in Street Magic.

Seems like a bad omission if it is intentional, though.

[Sternenwind]

Spirits with materialize get immunity(SR5 S.398). Spirits with inhabitation in hybrid and flesh from get immunity. Heck spirits in hybrid form can even use neural interface and active cyberware “unlike possession spirits”(SR5 SG S.195ff).

To tell the true, from a balance point of view, I can, a little bit, understand why possession spirits lost their immunity. A guard, or channeling mage, possessed with an attribute boost and immunity in addition to his armor is a force of itself. But if that is the problem you could just say that immunity does not stack with worn armor.

Back to the other points; 4-6 is void. I must apologise for my hasty comment. I don’t know how I got these ideas. Probably read it in a thread, which I could not find anymore, got convinced and accepted it as solid fact. Most likely something the line that shapechange replaces your body with a generic one to explain the vanishing of cyberware, and that a possessed one is a new being and never was target this spell … stuff.

So 1 and 2, about flying and immunity is just a question about if the designer missed something, because again based on the quality of SG this would plausible.

1.   Did they miss to explain that the Spirit Movement in SR5 S.303 only concern materialization?
2.   Is the loss of immunity against natural weapon deliberately?
3.   Ok not immune, so they are affected. What is about hybrid and true from inhabitation spirits?
4-5 … ok
6. At this point I am just irritated. First I wanted to write how the initiative modifier for most of the spirits, match their reaction modifier. But then I notice that shadow spirits have an intuition modifier with a matching astral initiative*. And that that the initiative modifier does not include increased intuition for notshadow spirits. But for creatures of the unknown its reaction + intuition + 2D6 back again**+, or not+***.
Somehow the “that is not on purpose they are just ... “, … let’s say ‘absent-minded’, line finally start to stick on me. I think I am ready to buy it.

So the best is to just ignore this stuff until they published errata. And take the Initiative Attribute Chart in the Core Rulebook (SR5 S.159), adding follow sentence to spirits. “Spirits have the power advanced reflexes and receive 1D6 Initiative Die (to a maximum of 5D6). The increase count for the astral and physical plane and cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to initiative”

*SR5 SG S.92 Shadowspirit
**SR5 SG S.100ff
***SR5 SG S.100 manananggal torso(while detached)

[voydangel]

On page 161 of SR5 it states:

A character’s movement for an entire Combat Turn
(meaning total movement for all Initiative Passes, not
for each Initiative Pass) is based on their Run rate, which
is determined by metatype.

This means that a person with a run rate of 20 could not move 21 meters in a single combat round (barring sprinting of course - we're not talking about sprinting here). That much is clear.

However, this also implies that a person who gets more than one pass in a combat round would have to "divide" their total running movement in a combat round across each of their passes in that round since they don't get their full running move rate on each pass.
Is this correct?

Or could a person with a move of 20 and 4 initiative passes in a single round move the full 20 meters on their first pass and then just not move any more for the rest of the current combat round?

There seems to be a lot of community support for the latter interpretation due to a lack of the RAW explicitly declaring that the move rate must be "divided". People seem to think that since the RAW doesn't use that exact word ("divide") that you don't have to, so I would really appreciate it if we could get something more "official" on this to settle the debate.

[MadBear]

The problem here, as I see it, is that interpreting the rules one way you can 'teleport' your 20 meters in one initiative pass, and are then stuck standing still the rest of the turn(unless you then decide to sprint); but interpreting the rules the other way so a wired Sam with 4 passes moves 5 meters per pass you can have a mook with only one initiative pass move his, lets say 12 meters all at once, thereby 'teleporting'. It's a lose/lose scenario. Someone's gonna be pissed with the outcome no matter what.
Which is why I like the DnD 3.5 method, where you spend a Simple Action to move your AGL in meters. You can spend both Simple Actions to move double your AGL, or can still run. But moving 20 or 24 or even 32 meters in an initiative pass, that makes no sense to me at all. But that's a separate topic.

[Namikaze]

There seems to be a lot of community support for the latter interpretation due to a lack of the RAW explicitly declaring that the move rate must be "divided". People seem to think that since the RAW doesn't use that exact word ("divide") that you don't have to, so I would really appreciate it if we could get something more "official" on this to settle the debate.

The only thing "official" at this point is the main book, which does not specify the need for dividing your movement between Initiative Passes.  Adding the interpretation of dividing movement is not RAW.  There is no need to settle this debate, as there shouldn't be a debate about what is clearly not written in the book.  Perhaps this is something worth submitting as errata, but asking for official interpretation of a clearly-written section of the book isn't going to get an official response.

[voydangel]

I disagree that it is clearly written, so therein lies the issue.

You say that "adding the interpretation of dividing movement" is not RAW.
I say that "adding the interpretation that you can move your entire move rate in a single pass when it clearly states that movement is over the entire combat round" is not RAW.

The issue here is that RAW doesn't give any info or examples on how movement should work when the character gets more than 1 initiative pass. I don't think it's too much to ask for someone to clarify this. All it would take is a "yes you can move your entire running move rate in a single initiative pass, but then you (obviously) can't move for the rest of the combat round" or a "no, you can't do that".

I'm sorry if you are annoyed at this particular rules question for whatever reason, but I don't think I should get shot down so harshly for asking for a rules clarification in the rules clarification thread.

[ZeConster]

Unlike in 4th, the amount of Initiative Passes you get isn't set in stone - Interrupt actions, wound modifiers, electricity, spells and dispelling can all change how many Initiative Passes you get in a Combat Turn while the Combat Turn is already in progress. The rules do not support dividing your movement alottance if you have more than 1 Initiative Pass, and doing so would cause more issues than it solves, which is why houserule proposals use a constant number of Initiative Passes to split movement over regardless of how many Initiative Passes you actually get.

[Namikaze]

A character’s movement for an entire Combat Turn (meaning total movement for all Initiative Passes, not for each Initiative Pass) is based on their Run rate, which is determined by metatype.

This is RAW.  It is absolutely RAW, because anyone can pull it up and read this exact quote.  There is nothing in this sentence, or any of the sentences that precede or follow it, that talk about movement being broken up by Initiative Pass.  So there is no need for clarification of RAW.  What you're looking for is clarification of RAI, which is (to paraphrase your signature) "Rules as Imagined" unless a developer chimes in on it.  Therefore, your request isn't for clarification, it's for errata.

The issue here is that RAW doesn't give any info or examples on how movement should work when the character gets more than 1 initiative pass. I don't think it's too much to ask for someone to clarify this. All it would take is a "yes you can move your entire running move rate in a single initiative pass, but then you (obviously) can't move for the rest of the combat round" or a "no, you can't do that".

There is an example given in which Wombat and Caster move over the course of multiple Initiative Passes.

Wombat wants to take a quick shot and bolt for the next piece of cover. He declares his actions and fires while moving for cover 8 meters away. He has an Agility of 5, making his Walk Rate 10 meters. He makes the cover and would be considered walking on this Action Phase.
If the same cover was 11 meters away, Wombat would be considered running. On his next Action Phase Wombat can only move 2 meters before he is considered Running. His Run Rate is 20 meters, meaning he has 12 meters of movement left for the Combat Turn before he has to Sprint.
Caster, a dwarf with Agility 3, is going right after Wombat and wants to blast a guard with a quick spell while moving into cover with Wombat. Since the cover is 8 meters away and Caster’s Walking rate is 6, he is considered Running. On any subsequent Initiative Passes in this Combat Turn, Caster is still considered to be Running even if he doesn’t cover any more ground. He can only move another 4 meters. This Combat Turn before he has to Sprint.

So there's the clarification you requested.  As far as being shot down "harshly," I apologize for not being overly apologetic or polite in my phrasing.  I am trying to be matter-of-fact about this instead.