[FastJack]

I'm curious, how many people use the optional rule that Adepts (and Mystic Adepts) can choose to gain a Power Point rather than a meta-magic technique when initiating?

Furthermore, I'm curious - If one were to limit initiation to 6 ranks only and have Magic hard capped at 12 as Gun suggests, would you opt to use said optional rule then?

Never had to decide either way, since I haven't run 4A yet, but its kind of a scary thought. Increasing Magic from 5 to 6 is 30 Karma, Initiation is <30 Karma up to level 6. So its a cheaper way to get a power point than raising attributes and a concentrated, Init 6 Mag 12 character is going to have 18 Power Points worth of stuff.

You don't get an Adept Power Point for Initiating to a higher level. An Adept with Magic 6, Init 12 would still only have 6 Power Points to spend on Adept powers.

[Mäx]

I'm curious, how many people use the optional rule that Adepts (and Mystic Adepts) can choose to gain a Power Point rather than a meta-magic technique when initiating?

Furthermore, I'm curious - If one were to limit initiation to 6 ranks only and have Magic hard capped at 12 as Gun suggests, would you opt to use said optional rule then?

Never had to decide either way, since I haven't run 4A yet, but its kind of a scary thought. Increasing Magic from 5 to 6 is 30 Karma, Initiation is <30 Karma up to level 6. So its a cheaper way to get a power point than raising attributes and a concentrated, Init 6 Mag 12 character is going to have 18 Power Points worth of stuff.

You don't get an Adept Power Point for Initiating to a higher level. An Adept with Magic 6, Init 12 would still only have 6 Power Points to spend on Adept powers.

Yes you do, if the optional rule voydangel was asking about is used and you take a power point instead of a metamagic at every initiation.

[FastJack]

Oops... missed the line about the optional rule. My bad. Blame it on NaNoWriMo and sugar high from leftover Halloween candy.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Yeah, the question was how we felt about an optional rule whereby you could get a Power Point instead of metamagic. For the first few grades it looks benign enough. Taken to its logical extreme, though, you get some pretty hefty Adept powers, most of which are limited by Magic (so 12 levels of a given power). Sure, its expensive at 350-500 Karma to get there but its pretty powerful, too. . .

I guess the real question is whether or not an Init 6, Mag 12, Power Point 18 (12 without the optional) Adept is grossly overpowered, comparable, or underpowered next to an Init 6, Mag 12 mage. That's a little harder to define.

[The Cat]

Yeah, the question was how we felt about an optional rule whereby you could get a Power Point instead of metamagic. For the first few grades it looks benign enough. Taken to its logical extreme, though, you get some pretty hefty Adept powers, most of which are limited by Magic (so 12 levels of a given power). Sure, its expensive at 350-500 Karma to get there but its pretty powerful, too. . .

I guess the real question is whether or not an Init 6, Mag 12, Power Point 18 (12 without the optional) Adept is grossly overpowered, comparable, or underpowered next to an Init 6, Mag 12 mage. That's a little harder to define.

"Physical" Adepts have had problems in almost every edition.  Out of the box in SR1 they were gods, in SR2 they were wimps in SR3 they were difficult to challenge and in 4 a well built adept is frightening.  And then imagine, if you will, an Initiated adept with 6 more points of magic burning them for cyber and bio....  Adepts have just as much potential for frightening power as any mage, and maybe even more so, since they can easily "double-dip" into mundane and magical resources that synergize well in many cases whereas a good bit of cyber and bioware won't really boost the mage's potential as much.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Ooo, hadn't thought of it that way. Twelve Power Points and six Essence worth of 'ware. Eep!

[FastJack]

Actually, it's not exactly six Essence of 'ware, but six power points of abilities that mimic what 'ware can do. Because if you spend 5 Essence on 'ware, you're magic drops to one and you maximum Initiation level drops to 1 as well. Meaning you'd lose all those power points.

[The Cat]

Actually, it's not exactly six Essence of 'ware, but six power points of abilities that mimic what 'ware can do. Because if you spend 5 Essence on 'ware, you're magic drops to one and you maximum Initiation level drops to 1 as well. Meaning you'd lose all those power points.

The key would be using ware that doesn't have an adept version OR that is "cheaper" when bought as ware than with power points or that push you beyond what you can do with just power points (for instance, using pheromones to augment maxed out social adept abilities).  In the RAW this can get insane without the caps, and even with the artificial caps applied, someone determined to min-max with it can still build a hulking adept monster with heavy ware and a full compliment of adept abilities all working together since an adept can ALSO buy up the magic score as they initiate as long as they have a "natural" magic of 1 they can always continually cycle between initiating and buying a point of magic and get magic lost to ware back.

Edit: Forgot the other scary part.  They can then use their ware for astral combat judging by the cyberzombie rules.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Actually, it's not exactly six Essence of 'ware, but six power points of abilities that mimic what 'ware can do. Because if you spend 5 Essence on 'ware, you're magic drops to one and you maximum Initiation level drops to 1 as well. Meaning you'd lose all those power points.

Edit for clarification: Max Magic=6-Essence Loss+Initiation
Max Initiation=Current Magic
So if I have Magic 6, initiate 6 times, buy up to magic 12 and take 5.x of cyberwear, Max Magic=6, Initiation=6 (350-400 Karma and mass nuyen)
Based on the optional rule of trading Metamagic for a Power Point, Power Points=Magic+Initiation
In this example, Power Points=12 with 5.01-5.99 Essence loss from 'ware.

Do not like.

[FastJack]

Actually, it's not exactly six Essence of 'ware, but six power points of abilities that mimic what 'ware can do. Because if you spend 5 Essence on 'ware, you're magic drops to one and you maximum Initiation level drops to 1 as well. Meaning you'd lose all those power points.

Edit for clarification: Max Magic=6-Essence Loss+Initiation
Max Initiation=Current Magic
So if I have Magic 6, initiate 6 times, buy up to magic 12 and take 5.x of cyberwear, Max Magic=6, Initiation=6 (350-400 Karma and mass nuyen)
Based on the optional rule of trading Metamagic for a Power Point, Power Points=Magic+Initiation
In this example, Power Points=12 with 5.01-5.99 Essence loss from 'ware.

Do not like.

A character’s initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute. If a character’s Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it.

[Nomad Zophiel]

A character’s initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute. If a character’s Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it.

Agreed. However, a character's Magic may exceed her Initiation grade and then be lowered to be equal to her initiation grade without effecting initiation grade. A Magic 6 character can have Initiation 6 regardless of whether or not he once had Magic 12. As this theorietical cyberadept grows he has to be sure that there's always room to keep his Magic one point higher than his Initiation Grade. He doesn't have to buy it immediately, but he does have to have room to fill Magic=Initiation Grade+1 at some point in the future.

Put another way:
At character creation, cyberadept has Magic 5, buys 4 Essence worth of 'ware. Now he has Magic 1. He has the potential here to spend 25 BP to get Magic to 2.
Later he pays Karma to get Initiation Grade 1. He can now buy his Magic up to 3 if he wants (paying for it as an increase from 5 to 6 then from 6 to seven).
He gets another point of 'ware, reducing his Magic 3 to Magic 2.
Later he gets Initiation Grade 2, buys his magic back up to 3 (6-Essence loss+initiation, paying for it as an increase from 7 to
Now he goes back and forth, buying one grade of initiation, then the point of magic to fill it through grades 4-6, ending with Initiation 6 and Magic 7.
Adds .99 worth of 'ware flushing his essence down the toilet.
He now had Magic 6, Initiation 6 and 5.99 Essence worth of 'ware without his initiation ever having been higher than his Magic.

And in the case of the optional rule of Power Points instead of Metamagic he also has 12 points of Adept powers, supplementing the ones that are maxed out with 'ware that enhances them still further.

[The Cat]

Actually, it's not exactly six Essence of 'ware, but six power points of abilities that mimic what 'ware can do. Because if you spend 5 Essence on 'ware, you're magic drops to one and you maximum Initiation level drops to 1 as well. Meaning you'd lose all those power points.

Edit for clarification: Max Magic=6-Essence Loss+Initiation
Max Initiation=Current Magic
So if I have Magic 6, initiate 6 times, buy up to magic 12 and take 5.x of cyberwear, Max Magic=6, Initiation=6 (350-400 Karma and mass nuyen)
Based on the optional rule of trading Metamagic for a Power Point, Power Points=Magic+Initiation
In this example, Power Points=12 with 5.01-5.99 Essence loss from 'ware.

Do not like.

A character’s initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute. If a character’s Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it.

You're mathematically off on this one.  The character's Grade has NOT exceeded their magic score, they are even.

Starting Character Magic 6
Character initiates 6 times:  Magic 6 Grade 6
Character buys 6 points of magic: Magic 12 Grade 6
Character buys 5.01 points of cyber/bioware: Magic 6 Grade 6.

Character now has 5+ essence in ware a grade 6 initiation and a magic 6 meaning they are STILL even with their magic attribute to their ini grade.  If they get LESS than 5 points of ware, they can continue to initiate because they have magic 7 Grade 6, can initiate, buy another point of magic and initiate again, then buy another point of magic and so on into infinity.

[FastJack]

Okay, yes, if they spent the Karma to increase their magic to 12, then reduced it, then they would still have those 12 points. Sorry 'bout that.

[Nomad Zophiel]

No worries, man. Sure its silly, but the over the top cases illustrate the smaller point. Having one or two extra Power Points probably won't stick out. Having six, or a full sammie's 'ware in addition to the full normal power points does. The cyberware thing probably wouldn't happen but its a good example of what an adept could do with six extra power points, since most people have a solid image of what a Sammie's loadout is.

[The Cat]

No worries, man. Sure its silly, but the over the top cases illustrate the smaller point. Having one or two extra Power Points probably won't stick out. Having six, or a full sammie's 'ware in addition to the full normal power points does. The cyberware thing probably wouldn't happen but its a good example of what an adept could do with six extra power points, since most people have a solid image of what a Sammie's loadout is.

In a number of games I've been in it was not uncommon for Initiated mages and adepts to have some ware floating around to augment their "specialization."  While I've never been in a game with a monster that's gone full cyber and full magic before, I've seen some riding the edge with their initiation grades and essence to max out their capabilities after doing s through "normal" straight-out magical means.