[All4BigGuns]

If I recall right, I think you can only max out one attribute.

[Typhus]

Nothing about in the Attributes section, nor true for skills either as far as I can see.  If I'm overlooking it somewhere, definitely will need a pointer to the right page/section. 

I know 4e had some caps like that for skills, and Atts were cost prohibitive, IIRC. So far, I think the Limits mechanic makes that kind of cap mostly irrelevant.

[All4BigGuns]

Characters at character creation
may only have 1 Mental or Physical attribute at their
natural maximum limit; the special attributes of Magic,
Edge, and Resonance are not included in this limitation.

[Typhus]

OK, thanks.  I looked right past that sentence twice and didn't see it.  I'm getting old I guess. It would be nice to have on one master chart somewhere.  I keep expecting critical stuff like this to be much more obvious to find by glancing through a page, more like it was in past editions.  In this case, it looks like I can shift 1 Intuition to Will and not wreck the whole of the party train of an 8 Mental limit.  No big whup.

On the other side, I seem to be liking most things outside the chargen section quite well.  Its this one section that seems to be the most challenging.  I want it to get to the point more quickly and it doesn't serve that end.  20 years of SR, I know what I need to do more or less, and want it more "one page" style.  I don't want to read 5 pages of description of things I already know about.  Oh darn, poor me.   

I'm also becoming a one-rule-to-rule-them-all kind of gamer, and this seems to have a lot of exceptions and special circumstances to keep in mind. I'm starting to evaluate the prospect of GMing this and trying to track all these circumstances and conditional exceptions seems daunting at first read through.  Has anyone run a game of this yet?  Or is there a podcast up of a game being run?  I'd like to see how it should be done by people who know it, so I can get a feel for how it could/should go. 

I haven't been making the character tonight, and reading the matrix took a backseat to e-mails.  I do note that this is the first edition where an Elven Decker is actually viable at creation, relative to other builds.  Choosing Elf so far down the list at this point doesn't seem like a handicap...yet.  Those and metahuman magicians were always challenging builds.  This comes closer than 4e to minimizing that gap I think.  I have enough points and money for everything, and limits didn't trip me up.  It's in the win category overall.  I may just need to go through the chargen section more meticulously and make my own summary page.  If someone has one already done, that would be swell.  If not, I can post what I come up with.

Thanks again folks.

[Crunch]

Thanks everyone.  So far (left over from last night) I went with:

Resources: A (due to deck costs, bought the Sony deck and all programs plus a data tap so far)
Attributes: B (20) - Maxed Logic and Intuition, Will 3, with Reaction 4, that gives me a meatspace/AR init of 10+1d6, occasional 2nd action even in meatspace is a win as a decker w/o reflex boosts.  Chose this priority that high because they set the Limits and having low stats here seems like giving yourself
Skills: C (28/2) - Tentative plan for a base of 4 in all six computer skills, with 4 + 2 group left to allocate for the support/rp stuff
Race: D (Elf-0) - "Edge shmedge" he said, hoping to live to regret it.
Magic: E - Duh.

Came out with Mental Limit 7 + 1 for indomitable Quality.
Physical + Social (before cyber): 5 each.

Feeling good about him overall so far.  Limits were worrisome as a concept to me at first glance, but with 4 hits still being a strong degree of success I feel okay with their outcome. 

Bought a 3/3 Fixer and a 2/1 Techie for contacts, plan to add some Karma to boost the techie slightly. 

Going to read up on the Matrix (which is so far is quite nicely written) and see what else is new.

You might see how he looks with Skills A Resources C. I suspect you'd like it more.

[Swiftsquire]

I would suggest reading the Matrix section before starting the character creation of a Decker. It pretty much spells out what makes a good Decker and what would be most important to him.

[Typhus]

Thanks, I'll be getting back to it later today I hope.  Matrix section is pretty readable so far.

@Crunch: Are the deck stats not as relevant?  I recall someone said skill now matters more than program, is that why? 

[Crunch]

Thanks, I'll be getting back to it later today I hope.  Matrix section is pretty readable so far.

@Crunch: Are the deck stats not as relevant?  I recall someone said skill now matters more than program, is that why?

Ok so here's how it works.

Skill and attribute provide pool.
Deck stats provide [LIMIT] and are reconfigurable.
Programs are a flat +2 bonus to die pool.

Limit is useful, but only really matters if the character already has a large die pool, and Edge allows characters to push the limit and ignore limit either before or after a given roll.

I haven't played a decker in this edition yet, but I suspect that Deckers will NEED skills and attributes and WANT shiny decks.

[Typhus]

Have you (or anyone) had a chance to play any sessions of it yet? 

Everything is making much more sense as I go through now.  The one thing I will say I am overall unhappy with as I go through the book is the endless list of fiddly conditional rules: including wireless mods, and how simple things are no longer as simple.  It sometimes feels like handicaps have been thrown in just to make something else able to solve the artificial handicap later on. Maybe that's part of a "grittier feel" plan or something, but for me, it's just more work at the table.  I usually have to walk players through various SR rules multiple times in a session, so seeing more rules than the game needs to function being so baked in, I get to dreading being the human rule base to that extent. 

That's why I want to see how it plays out, both in how it should go, but also what people think of the system as they play and GM both.  I'll poke around the forums and see if people have game play reports, I guess.  Its my one big reservation so far, but that's an untested theory.  If modding what I feel is "extra" complexity out is easier than it looks or if it actually helps rather than hinders, that would be great to know.  Is there a good SR5 play stories thread I should check out in specific?

[Liam oConnor]

Skill and attribute provide pool.
Deck stats provide [LIMIT] and are reconfigurable.
Programs are a flat +2 bonus to die pool.

Actually programs are a little bit more complex - only a few add dice to the DP, most of them add to your deck's attributes and therefore raise the limit for certain tests!
This makes especially cheap decks a lot more effective.

Example:
Erika MCD-1, Device-Rating 1, Programs 1
running: Virtual Machine (Common program, adding 2 additional program-slots at the cost of higher vulnerability)
in the 2 bonus-slots:
- Exploit (+2 to Sleaze (and therefore the test's limit) for Hacking on the Fly)
- Stealth (+1 to Sleaze)

Now you can allocate your highest Deck-Rating to Sleaze (4) and add 3 to this while Hacking on the Fly for a total limit of 7. But you won't get any DP-Boni out of programs for Hacking on the Fly, that's all in your Attribute+Skill(+Qualities)

[GiraffeShaman]

There is also a very good program known as Sneak, which not only gives you + 2 to your pool against traces, but makes you immune to the physical location trace part of demiGod Convergence.

You may want to look more into edge before discounting it. It's better than ever this edition, both with it's uses, and how it refreshes. It actually does make it fairly hard to make a metahuman decker though, because a Decker has to be strong in so many areas. Not much left over for Edge and Race.

[Typhus]

I think I'm going to go ahead and say I am done with this thread, and say thanks to you all for your help. 

The more I read, the less I like this edition.  I gave up on the Decker after reading the Wireless World section, and after looking around some more considering other character types, I'm pretty sure I'm giving up on this edition entirely.   It's not that it's hard to understand, I understand it just fine.  It's not that I think it's "bad" or anything, it's just that it's not for me.  It has too many rules, unnecessary complexity in those rules, they are not well laid out for ease of access, and overall it feels too oppressive to players and characters -- everything has some artificial limit, restriction, or qualifier to bear in mind. You can't just kick back and play the game, you have to have millions of rules for every exact situation, not just a few solid ones that govern everything, and easy ways to modify to suit circumstances, and allow people to get on with the dice.  I looked back at earlier editions, I find them instantly understandable and accessible, and above all, simple.  Each one has it's own possible improvements, but still, they elicit a very different response in me.  I would always dive in and devour new editions, and the convert my friends, and we'd play on.  It's not happening here, its more the opposite.  This one...I'm sorry to say...every page I find something new I dislike, or else wish was handled differently.     

I did end up getting the Quick Start Guide, and it's more what I want for presentation, which resolves my issues with accessibility...but then I'm still left with the systemic issues I am not liking.  From what I can see, there's no fixing that without a degree of houseruling beyond the time I have available.  Even then, how do I ask a player to invest in a rule book I will be ignoring most of? 

I'd give it 1 point for all the obvious hard work and effort, and another 1 point for quality of product, but it's ended up as a 2/5 star score for me as a fan since 91.  I'll possibly retcon some things to an earlier edition, because it does have some positive improvements in places, but overall this one is not for me.  I really have given it more of a chance than you've seen me say so here, there's just only so much I'm up for explaining.  I never thought I would say this, but I won't be investing in this edition of Shadowrun.  I hope those who do so enjoy it.   

Thank you fans for helping explain some things better, and definitely thanks for keeping the brand alive, Catalyst. I won't be far away.  Good luck.