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[RECRUITMENT - 5E] And Shadows Will Fall

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mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #60 on: <07-25-13/1909:52> »
Balance is a huge factor for Mystic Adepts. They only lose Astral Projection compared to Mages after all, and no longer have to split their Magic attribute.

First, note that RAW the cost is 2 Karma/PP. However, at least one Missions Designer here on the forum mentioned that (at least in Missions) it should be 5 Karma/PP.
That is of course a significant difference - but considering how little 12 Karma is (which is all you need to buy 6 PP if it costs 2 Karma/PP) - its barely equal to some qualities - and that that's almost the only difference that matters at character creation between Mages and Mystic Adepts, a higher price seems called for. Otherwise Mystic Adepts are vastly better than Mages at character creation - being unable to astrally project and having 12 less Karma doesn't equal the worth of 6 points of Adept powers!

Either way, the ONLY place where buying Power Points for Karma is mentioned is on page 68/71. It's not in any advancement table or other chapter than the character creation one.
To me at least, this suggests that NOT gaining free Power Points with increased Magic is supposed to be a large balancing factor for Mystic Adepts. That way, they advance equally to a Mage in Mage-abilities, but need Initiation to advance in Adept-stuff (thus gaining PP at a lower rate and having less initiation to boot).


Assuming my interpretation is correct (no PP/Karma after Chargen) and using the higher cost, a Mystic Adept is still a highly valid character concept. It's good for portraying all sorts of Magic Knights, Paladins, Shadow Assassins and other Caster/Melee // Caster/Skillful concepts you can find. It's mechanically valid if you want to complement physical skill with spellcasting, or back up your spellcasting with other competencies.
You can still do all of that - but it'll cost you enough that you won't be as good at casting spells than someone who focusses on that.



Bottom Line: In my opinion
Power Points should cost 5 Karma at Chargen for Mystic Adepts.
Mystic Adepts should not be able to buy PPs for Karma after Chargen.
Otherwise, they become too good in comparison to mages.



Uh, my bad. Obviously the wording on page 279 refers to both Adepts and Mystic Adepts - raising your Magic raises your PP.
So, disregard the above, the rules are currently clear on this.
The only thing that isn't clear is if you do not buy all the PP you could at CharGen (say, you have 5 magic but only buy 3 PP) - but i see no reason to punish a player for not doing that at CharGen.
Mind, i still think that not automatically gaining PP with Magic Increase would be nice balance-wise, but eh. The rules are currently clear on the subject.
Note that I wasn't asking if a mystic adept could buy unlimited PP at 5 Karma per.  I was specifically asking if he could buy to the starting limit later, or if he has to absolutely drop all of his Karma on chargen PP or suffer the consequences later.  I'd like to get a mentor spirit, but if I can't grab the PP I'd have to drop for it, then I guess I can get that later.  What I'm asking isn't covered in the book either way, so it has to come down to the GM's decision.
Remember, you don't have to kill the vehicle to stop it, just kill the guy driving it.

Scarecrow71

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« Reply #61 on: <07-26-13/0026:30> »
Ruling tomorrow.  Work sucked, and I got caught up in stuff tonight.
I could wile away the hours conversing with the flowers
Consulting with the rain
And my head I'd be scratching while my thoughts were busy hatching
If I only had a brain...

"Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

Crunch

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« Reply #62 on: <07-26-13/0040:11> »
Ruling tomorrow.  Work sucked, and I got caught up in stuff tonight.

Sorry to hear about work.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #63 on: <07-26-13/0041:40> »
Same here, and I completely understand where you're coming from. We're extremely short-handed at my work right now (basically have like half staffing).
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Crunch

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« Reply #64 on: <07-26-13/0045:10> »
I actually just started a new job. Even with my hire (and I'm only partially trained) we need to fill 2 out of 6 staff positions.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #65 on: <07-26-13/0048:59> »
We've had several people retire (will have one more doing so in the next few months) and we're about to have one transferring to a location in another city and one moving to a different position in the department. It's annoying that we're losing so many people but TPTB won't freaking hire more people to replace them.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #66 on: <07-26-13/0050:53> »
Hey, it could be worse.  2 jobs ago, the day I hired in as the department manager... all of the workers quit to go work where the previous manager had migrated to.  None of them had notified the company that they were jumping ship, so that left me as the only one in the entire department.  Fun times.
Remember, you don't have to kill the vehicle to stop it, just kill the guy driving it.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #67 on: <07-26-13/0055:13> »
Hey, it could be worse.  2 jobs ago, the day I hired in as the department manager... all of the workers quit to go work where the previous manager had migrated to.  None of them had notified the company that they were jumping ship, so that left me as the only one in the entire department.  Fun times.

That one would straight up piss me off royal.

I guess the stuff going on now is part of being a State employee...
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Crunch

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« Reply #68 on: <07-26-13/0104:58> »
Hey, it could be worse.  2 jobs ago, the day I hired in as the department manager... all of the workers quit to go work where the previous manager had migrated to.  None of them had notified the company that they were jumping ship, so that left me as the only one in the entire department.  Fun times.

That one would straight up piss me off royal.

I guess the stuff going on now is part of being a State employee...

Me too. (as of three weeks ago).

obidancer

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« Reply #69 on: <07-26-13/0123:22> »
Nothing like being your own boss!  ;-)
Hey Scarecrow, just checking if at least I will make it to the list of submitted character (see last post of page 4 for my submission)
Rick Deckard - Circles of Fate
Kachina - Shaking the Shadows

mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #70 on: <07-26-13/0718:32> »
Having a wife really gets in the way of dedicated character planning time... 
Remember, you don't have to kill the vehicle to stop it, just kill the guy driving it.

Scarecrow71

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« Reply #71 on: <07-26-13/0859:58> »
@obidancer:  As I stated last night, work kicked my ass yesterday, and then I got caught up in real life stuff last night.  Today's the last day, and I'll be reviewing all submissions tonight/tomorrow.  Don't worry if your name doesn't show up on the list in the first post yet, because I will be going through all the posts to make sure I didn't miss anybody.


Ruling on Mystic Adepts and Power Points
Ok, so I'm going to be doing some quoting here because I like to see the rules and I like to let everyone know where I'm coming from.  So we'll start with what the book says on page 279:

Quote
...adepts receive Power Points equal to their Magic attribute, while mystic adepts have to buy Power Points 0with Karma. Subsequently, Power Points can come in two ways. You get a free Power Point whenever you increase your Magic attribute, and you can gain a Power Point through Initiation (p. 324) instead of gaining a metamagic.

This states that at character generation, Mystic Adepts must use Karma to purchase power points.  It also states that adepts gain a free power point whenever their MAG rating increases, and it does not state that this doesn't apply to Mystic Adepts.  Kind of poorly worded (in my opinion) when it states Adepts get them free at character creation and Mystic Adepts have to pay for them, but it's not that big of a deal.  So, if you increase your MAG rating using Karma during game play - Mystic Adept or Adept - you get a free Power Point.  And considering how expensive it is to raise your MAG rating, that's actually quite fair for both.

Now, as far as purchasing Power Points with Karma during game play...

The only reference I can find to purchasing Power Points with Karma is on page 69, and that's only for Character Creation.  The specific statement:

Quote
Mystic adepts must purchase their Power Points with Karma (2 Karma each at character creation for a full Power Point, with a maximum number of points equal to their Magic attribute rating).

I went through the rules regarding spending earned Karma, and there is a section on Magic.  However, the section specifically mentions Spells, Rituals, and Preparations, and makes no mention of Power Points.  I then looked in both the Magic and Power Points sections, and I found NOTHING that indicates you can purchase Power Points using earned Karma.

Therefore, unless official errata comes out - and I don't mean a forum thread where someone suggests the rules be changed, but official Catalyst errata - you are NOT allowed to purchase Power Points after character creation.  You automatically gain a Power Point if you increase your MAG rating using earned Karma, and that's balanced enough.

This may seem like it makes Mystic Adepts better than true Magicians, but remember that you have to purchase Power Points with Karma during character creation, which will cut into everything else you want to spend that juicy Karma on (such as spells, qualities, skills, etc.).

If someone knows of an official ruling that I do not, please let me know and I'll review.

And now, I'm off to play Shadowrun Returns for a while this morning.  I'll be back later to review characters!
I could wile away the hours conversing with the flowers
Consulting with the rain
And my head I'd be scratching while my thoughts were busy hatching
If I only had a brain...

"Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #72 on: <07-26-13/1320:25> »

Name: Sid
Street Name: none yet
Height: 6'2"
Weight: 165 lbs.

Priorities
Metatype          D: Human (3)
Attributes          A: Attributes (24)
Magic/Resonance          C: Mystic Adept, Magic 3, 5 Spells
Skills          B: SKills (36/5)
Resources          E: 6,000¥

Karma Expenditures
Item          Karma          Total
Starting Character          +25          25
SINner: Corporate SIN(Ares)   +25          50
Adept PP x6          -30          20
Mentor Spirit(Fire-Bringer)       -5          15
Focused Concentration 1       -4          11
Astral Chameleon          -10          1
¥2,000 Extra          -1          0

¥ Expenditures
Item          ¥          Total
Character creation          +6,000¥          6,000¥
From Karma          +2,000¥          8,000¥
Weapons          -2,145¥          5,855¥
Armor          -1,100¥          4,755¥
Ammunition          -835¥          3,920¥
Gear          -520¥          3,400¥
Weapon Acc.          -2020¥          1,380¥
Lifestyles          -500¥          880¥
Starting Credits          2d6 x 40¥          (2d6 x 40)+880¥

Attributes (24)
Body          5                 Mental Limit          5
Agility          6                 Physical Limit          5
Reaction          3(6)                 Social Limit          8
Strength          1         Astral Limit          7
Charisma          5                 Physical Boxes          11
Intuition          5                 Stun Boxes          11
Logic          1                 Overflow Boxes          5
Willpower          6                 Notoriety          0
Edge          2                 Street Cred          0
Magic          6                 Public Awareness          0                    
Essence          6                    
Initiative          8(11) + 4d6                    

Positive Qualities (19)
Astral Chameleon          10
Focused Concentration       4
Mentor Spirit          5

Negative Qualities (25)
Sinner          25

Active Skills (36/5)
Conjuring Skill Group          5
Longarms          6
Pistols          6
Con (Fast-talking)          1 (+2)
Etiquette          1
Impersonation          1
Assensing          1
Perception          2
Arcana          1
Alchemy (Command)          6 (+2)
Spellcasting          6
Disguise          1
Palming          1
Sneaking          1

Knowledge Skills (10)
Magic Theory          3          LOG
Security Design (Ares)          2 (+2)          LOG
Security Tactics (Ares)          3 (+2)          LOG


Language Skills (2)
English          N
Japanese          2

Spells (5)
Magic Spells -
Ball Lightning
Physical Mask
Mob Mind
Alchemical Spells -
Heal
Increased Agility

Adept Powers (6 PP)
Astral Perception          1 PP
Improved Reflexes          3.5 PP
Combat Sense 1          .5 PP
Critical Strike (Pistols)          .5
Voice Control 1          .5

Weapons (2,145¥)
Item          ACC          Damage          AP          Mode           RC          Ammo          Avail          Cost
Street Line Special          4          6(7)P          -          SA          -          6(c)          4R          120¥
Ares Predator V          5(7)          8(9)P          -1          SA          -          15 (c)          5R          725¥
Ruger 100          6          11P          -3          SA          (1)          8 (m)          4R           1,300¥

Street Line Accessories (350¥)          Mount          Availability          Cost      
Hidden Arm Slide          -          4R          350¥

Predator Accessories (660¥)          Mount          Availability          Cost      
Silencer          Barrel          9F          500¥
Concealable Holster          -          2          150¥
Spare Clip x2          -          4          10¥

Ruger Accessories (1010¥)          Mount          Availability          Cost      
Bipod          Under          2          200¥
Gas-vent 3          Barrel          9R          600¥
External Smartgun          Top          4R          200¥
Spare Clip x2          -          4          10¥

Ammo (835¥)          Damage Mod          AP Mod          Availability          Cost
20 Caseless APDS(rifle)          -          -4          12F          240¥
20 Caseless APDS(heavy pistol)          -          -4          12F          240¥
30 Gel Rounds(heavy pistol)          +0S          +1          2R          75¥
20 Regular Ammo(heavy pistol)          -          -          2R          40¥
20 Caseless APDS(holdout)          -          -4          12F          240¥


Armor (1,100¥)
Armor          Rating          Availability          Cost
Armor Jacket          12          2          1000¥
Helmet          +2          2          100¥


Gear (520¥)
Item          Availability          Cost
Meta Link          2          100¥
-Sim Module          -          +100¥
-Trodes          -          70¥
-Subvocal Mic          4          50¥
Gas mask          -          200¥

Lifestyle (6,000¥)
Lifestyle          Cost          Notes
Squatter          500¥          He's crashing in a relatively uncrowded apartment building close to Bellevue.

SIN/Licenses (0¥)
SIN/Licenses          Availability          Cost          Notes
Sid McCleary (Real)          -          -          A real corporate born SIN.  Sid was born and raised with Ares.

Contacts (15)
Contact          C/L          Notes
Big Rome           3/4          Romeo is a long-time friend and a newly utilized black market connection, a.k.a. a fence
Susan Murphy          2/5          She is a smalltime magical merchandise peddler on the fast track to success.  Hopefully.  She's also a close friend with affectionate feelings toward Sid.

Description -
He is a very average-looking human with medium brown hair and dark green eyes.  His hair is kept neatly groomed and short

Background -
Sid was born and raised within the Ares corporation.  He Awakened early, and he was shortly after steered along the path to joining the company security forces.  His sometimes bad attitude, born of discontent with his surroundings, took him down a shorter path that ended with his somewhat abrupt dismissal.  A glitch in the company procedures left Sid as something of a non-entity.  He was removed from the security forces training, but he wasn't shifted to another sector.  Seeing this as his big break, he quietly made his way out to the Sprawl to make his way in the big, bad world on his own.


Well, I think that covers it. 
Remember, you don't have to kill the vehicle to stop it, just kill the guy driving it.

TCArknight

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« Reply #73 on: <07-26-13/1422:40> »
I revised Mr. Wilde, so I think he should be fairly complete....
« Last Edit: <07-26-13/1424:54> by TCArknight »

Crunch

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« Reply #74 on: <07-26-13/1432:54> »

If someone knows of an official ruling that I do not, please let me know and I'll review.


The closest thing to an official ruling so far is in the Missions FAQ. http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11547.0

Not likely to see any more about it until the errata is released.