[All4BigGuns]

Actually, there are three set-ups created.  Street, Standard, and Prime.

It was a simplified example. Two options makes for a simpler example than three.



The more capable the characters produced and the more options the characters can feasibly access, the more fun character generation, and game play afterward, will be. The less capable the characters and the less options feasibly accessible, the more tedious and boring both points become.

But real life is enough of a struggle, so I don't want to struggle as much in game. I game to get away from that drek.

[Maddoux1]

See, here's where you and I completely disagree.  My parties (that which I run and that which I play within) both elected the Street Level games.  We've chosen the lesser options, and we're having a great deal of fun.

Just because you do not enjoy it, it does not mean that it is tedious and boring.

And as for the answer being simpler, more precise is usually a better way to go.

[All4BigGuns]

And as for the answer being simpler, more precise is usually a better way to go.

It illustrates fine. The question will most often be either whether to go up or stay the same or whether to go down or stay the same. Rarely will all three be a possibility at the same time.

[Maddoux1]

That only holds true if the GM begins the conversation from one of the extremes.  But, as you stated, most people GM's are going to be advocates of the standard level.

From experience, most GMs are more willing to reduce than increase, but are more willing to stick with the base than either.

So if we start at the base (Standard), then the conversation is "we can go down to Street, remain at Standard, or go up to Prime."

I think that you were originally correct, and most games will start at the Standard level.  But, when the conversation takes place, all three will be a possibility.

[All4BigGuns]

If the GM is starting the conversation, more than likely it will start with a decision to go down, and only move back to the base if enough of the players start to walk out rather than sit there and take it.

[Chance359]

As I stated in the first post, I wanted to realign the price of augmenations with what I (and my GM) felt would be a more natural progression of cost vs resources.  After reading thru the posts here, I can see that I made my window to small, my focus not reaching out to other tech based characters types who's required gear also got jacked up.  I do like the idea of simply increasing the value of the priorites to increase flexibility.

If an admin could please close this thread as I think the core topic is no longer being discussed that would be great.

[Maddoux1]

You really have no faith in GMs do you?  Do you feel that games really are GM versus Player?  That's definitely the feeling that I'm getting from you.

The tradition that I've learned as a GM, that I've learned from the game store that I used to play and run at, and my best friend whom I play over skype with, is that we come tot he table before the first game for open conversation about the game that we're about to play.  We talk about systems and options, then we talk about setting.

I've heard horror stories of GMs, yes, and I've seen a bad one or two; but the overwhelming majority of GMs that I've experience with do as I do.

What I've seen more frequently is Player versus GM, where the Player fabricates a bias of the GM against the Players.

[All4BigGuns]

You really have no faith in GMs do you?  Do you feel that games really are GM versus Player?  That's definitely the feeling that I'm getting from you.

I didn't before I saw some of the attitudes on the boards. I had a lot more trust in GMs before seeing that.

[Maddoux1]

The hostility that I have seen you put forth greatly calls the hostility that you've been shown.  Now, I can't speak to your experiences before I joined the board, but that's what I've seen.

[Mäx]

My concern with increasing the Nuyen available in Character Creation is that it does make the Awakened Concepts much less valuable.  Normally, sure, they have their sweet spot early in the game, and yes, they're generally more powerful than non-Awakened characters in early game.  But a few runs later, those powered by Nuyen catch up.  Late game is when Powered By Nuyen (PBN) outshine those who are Powered By Karma (PBK).

Considering how much more valuable they are now, thats a good thing.
And it takes a lot more then few runs for nuyen based character to get any upgrades what so ever and ofcource the karma characters still have endless progression.

I like my 5E Samurai who depend more on the man than the metal, you can differ but my way ain't hamburger.

Well good that you like your non ware samurai, but some of us actually want to play a wared up character.
And for us yours is definedly hamburger.

[Maddoux1]

Considering how much more valuable they are now, thats a good thing.
And it takes a lot more then few runs for nuyen based character to get any upgrades what so ever and ofcource the karma characters still have endless progression.

I just ran some numbers and put together a thread examining this on http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12214.0.

Out of respect for the original poster, I'd suggest we move that conversation there.

As for hamburger vs. steak... if you're 'wared up man, you're basically hamburger yourself.  So little actual meat there... Stuffer Shack will be proud.

[All4BigGuns]

It may not seem like it, but the actual discussion is actually decently related.

[ZeConster]

I'd just like to hear what your argument is. So far all you've said is "I want to have an Ares Dragon and the fact that I can't have one is wrong." Ok so why is that wrong, and telling the T-Bird pilot he can't have his T-Bird right?

The Dragon is, again, the cheapest multi-seat helicopter, and within feasibility both in cost and availability. It would only take that slight tweak to starting resources (no house rules do not count as they can not be relied upon) to make it possible. The T-Bird would require a huge increase in maximum availability and an increase in resources of a factor of 6 to 7. See how much larger the difference is, now?

But it's currently the cheapest multi-seat helicopter. There may be better options later, and the Cessna C750 still transports 4 as long as you don't intend to use rooftop extractions, for about 40% of the price.

[Crunch]

Well good that you like your non ware samurai, but some of us actually want to play a wared up character.
And for us yours is definedly hamburger.

Actually he's not a non ware samurai, just a sam who outshines his ware.

[MadBear]

I find it rather interesting that just a short time ago there was a rather heated debate about weather or not Physical Adepts were under-powered compared to Cybered up Sams, who have access to such cheap augmentation; and now here we are lamenting the too high cost of said ware.
So which is it? Are PhysAds under-powered because they don't have access(without losing Essence) to cheap ware, or is ware to expensive now?
I like the current costs, and I like to play sammies. My current character, converting from 4th to 5th, only has about 3 Essence points of augmentation and he does just fine. But then, most of my focus is on Attributes and Skills, not relying on augmentation. Bone Lacing, Suprathyroid, Muscle Aug and Toner, Reflex Enhancers. That's it. He shines because of his skills and a few strategically built dice pools(18 dice pool with his favorite weapon, a heavily modified Ruger Superwarhawk and 16 with Unarmed that does just as much damage as the Ruger), and his attitude, which comes from play. Sure, he might not stand up in a head to head confrontation with the pregen orc sammie in the book, but so what? He's fun to play, and does not outshine the phys ad we have on the team either.
Every time I see arguments like this, phys ads are too week or augmentations are too costly, it always looks like someone is lamenting their favorite character won't be the most powerful in the game anymore. You should never want to be the most powerful. That's only fun for about one session. The fun comes from overcoming obstacles, from beating a challenge, and the greater the challenge the greater the fun. Leave things be, just play it as it stands, and focus on having fun not stacking the best stats.