[Crunch]

No, it wasn't. They intentionally misconstrued some posts. They took advice to act with caution and try to avoid shutting down a character's effectiveness completely (basically the equivalent of "don't put an entire party of wizards on a continent that is all Dead Magic zones") and twisted it into "you're not allowed to shoot it at all". That just proves to me that he knows I have a point, and he wants to try to discredit it with bull-drek.

Actually Guns contention at the time was that the GM would be out of line to damage or take away ANYTHING the player paid karma for. He brought up shooting up the runner's van as a specific example.

And my point is pretty clear. The vehicle prices are fine and starting resource levels seem pretty darn appropriate to me. I have yet to hear an argument from you as to why they aren't ok that doesn't boil down to "but I want the shiny NOW!"

And for the record that's not an attack on you. Its a request for you to present an actual argument.

[All4BigGuns]

No, it wasn't. They intentionally misconstrued some posts. They took advice to act with caution and try to avoid shutting down a character's effectiveness completely (basically the equivalent of "don't put an entire party of wizards on a continent that is all Dead Magic zones") and twisted it into "you're not allowed to shoot it at all". That just proves to me that he knows I have a point, and he wants to try to discredit it with bull-drek.

Actually Guns contention at the time was that the GM would be out of line to damage or take away ANYTHING the player paid karma for. He brought up shooting up the runner's van as a specific example.

And my point is pretty clear. The vehicle prices are fine and starting resource levels seem pretty darn appropriate to me. I have yet to hear an argument from you as to why they aren't ok that doesn't boil down to "but I want the shiny NOW!"

And for the record that's not an attack on you. Its a request for you to present an actual argument.

Actually, you bringing up that crap, and continuing the intentional misunderstanding of the meaning of it is pretty well proof that you're just attacking me to discredit the idea simply because you don't like it.

[faket15]

The real problem here is: you want something the game NEVER allowed. You are talking about SR3 starting money, but conveniently forgetting the exact things you want had availability levels high enough to make them impossible to get at chargen. Even if you go back to SR1 or SR2, when availability wasn't a factor, you can have the helicopter you want, but you can't have some much more common things, the closest thing to a Van in 2E is a 500k nuyen Citymaster.

[Crunch]

Nope. Not at all. I'm in fact not attacking you at all.

I'd just like to hear what your argument is. So far all you've said is "I want to have an Ares Dragon and the fact that I can't have one is wrong." Ok so why is that wrong, and telling the T-Bird pilot he can't have his T-Bird right?

[All4BigGuns]

Nope. Not at all. I'm in fact not attacking you at all.

I'd just like to hear what your argument is. So far all you've said is "I want to have an Ares Dragon and the fact that I can't have one is wrong." Ok so why is that wrong, and telling the T-Bird pilot he can't have his T-Bird right?

The Dragon is, again, the cheapest multi-seat helicopter, and within feasibility both in cost and availability. It would only take that slight tweak to starting resources (no house rules do not count as they can not be relied upon) to make it possible. The T-Bird would require a huge increase in maximum availability and an increase in resources of a factor of 6 to 7. See how much larger the difference is, now?

Being able to get a total of 1,000,000 again is not out of line with current prices, no matter how much you want it to be.

The real problem here is: you want something the game NEVER allowed. You are talking about SR3 starting money, but conveniently forgetting the exact things you want had availability levels high enough to make them impossible to get at chargen. Even if you go back to SR1 or SR2, when availability wasn't a factor, you can have the helicopter you want, but you can't have some much more common things, the closest thing to a Van in 2E is a 500k nuyen Citymaster.

Perhaps, but that was a problem then. It is so close to being fixed that one can almost taste it.

[faket15]

I don't see aircraft prices in SR4 and SR5 as a flaw of the system, but as a development choice. In both editions they have price points picked to force the player to compromise. You can have a helicopter at chargen, but it will cost a huge chunk of the maximum starting money, meaning you can only start with the aircraft + the most basic equipment you need. I think this is the reason why the Hughes Stallion isn't in the core book.

[Crunch]

1,000,000 was a disaster the first time and completely out of whack with the across the board power adjustment in this edition. If you want to house rule it fine, whatever works for your table, but it would completely obsolete Technomancers, put any sort of adept at a significant disadvantage and make summoning optimized mages just barely playable.

And I get it Guns. I know that you think balance is a bad thing and that you honestly believe that if you're character has everything he could possibly want at chargen the game would be better.

That's fine but "I can't have the helicopter I want" is not an argument for adjusting the starting resources. And when you keep chanting it over and over it just gets pretty old.

And the fact of the matter is that at this point your inventing the problem, because you CAN have an Ares Dragon with starting resources. You can even be a dreck hot pilot with an Ares Dragon and a Van. And I really GET that you can't have EVERYTHING you want at the start of the game. But when you get to the point that you're presenting as a problem that you can't have this whole list of gear at the same time you're in the same position as my 1E Rigger who REALLY wanted a T-Bird.

[All4BigGuns]

1,000,000 was not a disaster the first time and it would not throw anything "out of whack". And in no way would that provide "everything one can possibly want".

You could house rule the ridiculously low values too. (How's it feel?)

[Crunch]

1,000,000 was not a disaster the first time and it would not throw anything "out of whack". And in no way would that provide "everything one can possibly want".

You could house rule the ridiculously low values too. (How's it feel?)

Fortunately I don't have to since their RAW. And that's the point. You want the rule changed because people like me don't play in the "RIGHT" All4bigguns approved way. Stop it. There's nothing wrong with the rule. If you don't like it house rule it.

But first. Try and build a technomancer that can compete with a 5E Decker with a million cash to spend.

[All4BigGuns]

Fortunately I don't have to since their RAW. And that's the point. You want the rule changed because people like me don't play in the "RIGHT" All4bigguns approved way. Stop it. There's nothing wrong with the rule. If you don't like it house rule it.

That being "RAW" is unfortunate rather than fortunate. You aren't wrong to like what you like, but your way should be the optional, not the base.

[Maddoux1]

Technomancers, Adepts, and Mages only get better at their core concept through use of Karma.  Nuyen helps them get axillary tools, but doesn't really help their core concept.  (Well, focuses, but I've very rarely actually seen characters who use them.)

Riggers, StreetSams, and Deckers all get better at their core concepts through use of Karma and Nuyen. 

Whereas a Mage has to stretch karma between spells, skills, Attributes, and Initiation, and gets very little from Nuyen; a Rigger gets cooler Drones with Nuyen and upgrades his Skills and Attributes from Karma.

My concern with increasing the Nuyen available in Character Creation is that it does make the Awakened Concepts much less valuable.  Normally, sure, they have their sweet spot early in the game, and yes, they're generally more powerful than non-Awakened characters in early game.  But a few runs later, those powered by Nuyen catch up.  Late game is when Powered By Nuyen (PBN) outshine those who are Powered By Karma (PBK).

A time comes when a PBK character doesn't need anymore Nuyen, and they're just waiting on their next Karma grab.  PBN characters never do.


Street Level is optional, that's the ridiculously low. (And ridiculously fun!)  The standard chargen isn't ridiculous by most people's standards.

[Crunch]

Fortunately I don't have to since their RAW. And that's the point. You want the rule changed because people like me don't play in the "RIGHT" All4bigguns approved way. Stop it. There's nothing wrong with the rule. If you don't like it house rule it.

That being "RAW" is unfortunate rather than fortunate. You aren't wrong to like what you like, but your way should be the optional, not the base.

And obviously I disagree, and fortunately, despite your repeated assertions, your liking something DOESN'T make it THE WAY THINGS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE.

Besides, it's much easier to give extra than to take. I have yet to see a serious argument that Riggers and Samurai aren't very competitive in this edition. In fact if you go over to the adept thread a number of posters (including I believe you, you certainly didn't gainsay them) claim that Unarmed adepts aren't viable because Samurai are too good. I disagree with that point, but I don't see a need to buff Nuyen (which would be an effective buff for a number of Nuyen based roles). And doing so would A) shift limelight away from the character onto the gear (which is something they've been trying to move away from at least since 3E) and B) require a comprehensive rebalancing of all non Nuyen intensive roles including figuring out which roles are most Nuyen intensive and which least and what needs a buff.

I think they did an AWESOME job balancing this edition. The chargen is fast and flexible and there are a million different viable builds. That's a really hard balance to strike. Moving away from that because you want a helicopter (which you can get) but don't want to give up anything else seems a little ridiculous.

[Mirikon]

Guns, face it. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean RAW should be different. You don't like a lot of things that make the game balanced and fun for the majority of people.

[Maddoux1]

Now lets just not get too far down that hole, Mirikon.  While we like things the way their written doesn't mean that Guns doesn't like you having fun.

[All4BigGuns]

My concern with increasing the Nuyen available in Character Creation is that it does make the Awakened Concepts much less valuable.  Normally, sure, they have their sweet spot early in the game, and yes, they're generally more powerful than non-Awakened characters in early game.  But a few runs later, those powered by Nuyen catch up.  Late game is when Powered By Nuyen (PBN) outshine those who are Powered By Karma (PBK).

You have that backwards. The nuyen characters have always started out better and hit a ceiling whereas the karma characters have kept on going up.

Street Level is optional, that's the ridiculously low. (And ridiculously funtedious and boring!)

Fixed that for you.

And obviously I disagree, and fortunately, despite your repeated assertions, your liking something DOESN'T make it THE WAY THINGS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE.

Pot and kettle.