[Crunch]

And everyone did because those augmentations were so ridiculously underpriced compared to their utility.

As a point of comparison taking Agility from 9 to 10 (assuming you could do so without augmentation) would cost 50 Karma (IIRC Attributes are still 5*New Rating). Not to mention the cost for a troll taking strength from 10 to 14. Given that Muscle Toner 4 is actually capable of jumping from 6 to 10 (a Karma cost if it were possible of 170) I don't think Muscle Toner 4 is actually comparing unfavorably. Given that in the 13 runs Max is complaining about the runner would "only" get 104 Karma at 8 karma a session I honestly don't see the complaint.

*Note that I'm away from my books so if I've misremembered the Attribute formula for Karma let me know.

[All4BigGuns]

No they got them because they were priced fairly (how in the bloody hell do you call 25k per level--Muscle Toner price in SR3--underpriced). Now, the implants that actually have any real use are so ludicrously overpriced that it isn't even funny.

Suprathyroid, granted, was cheaper in SR3 than in both SR4 and SR5, but it's price (and availability, which is what got ridiculous in 4 and 5) was fair for what you got.

[firebug]

Honestly?  Good.  You don't need all those things, and it shouldn't be easy to reach peak augmentation.  And when I say "you don't need all those things" I really mean it.

Especially things like Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Booster.  Maybe you're still in SR4 mode where each level gave you a whole 'nother turn, but in SR5 they give you an average of 4.5 more initiative.  That's two levels of it for one more pass on average.  One level of it cannot give you enough of a boost for another action phase by itself, since the maximum of 1d6+1 is 7.  Assuming you have a total of 13 INT + REA (say, 8 REA and 5 INT, requiring maxing REA as creation), and 3d6 dice from a +2 augmentation, then your maximum is gonna be 31 initiative.  Your average would be about 24.  While getting that third rating will increase your chances of getting that 4th action phase, it won't get you a fifth, and on average will not get you the fourth, and that's assuming you have a maxed out REA attribute and high INT as well.

You really don't miss out on much for not spending the money to give yourself that little extra boost.  It's not necessary, so don't act like its price being high gimps cybered characters.

[Crunch]

No they got them because they were priced fairly (how in the bloody hell do you call 25k per level--Muscle Toner price in SR3--underpriced). Now, the implants that actually have any real use are so ludicrously overpriced that it isn't even funny.

Suprathyroid, granted, was cheaper in SR3 than in both SR4 and SR5, but it's price (and availability, which is what got ridiculous in 4 and 5) was fair for what you got.

Because 100K for level 4 is ten sessions of play to aug a troll from strength 10 to 14 without even looking at the agility buff? Compare that to the Karma cost of getting that upgrade in any other way.

Everyone took them because at the old prices they were ridiculously underpriced when compared to any competing upgrade. Even with the new prices Toner is still the most efficient way to reach the augmented maximum for Agi and Str.

[All4BigGuns]

Because 100K for level 4 is ten sessions of play to aug a troll from strength 10 to 14 without even looking at the agility buff? Compare that to the Karma cost of getting that upgrade in any other way.

Everyone took them because at the old prices they were ridiculously underpriced when compared to any competing upgrade. Even with the new prices Toner is still the most efficient way to reach the augmented maximum for Agi and Str.

Point 1- And? That is still a long time. Assuming playing once a week, that is at least two and a half months of sessions. This is still too long to get one implant that is important (whether absolutely needed or not depends on taste, but still important) to a character type.

Point 2- Not even worth bothering with.

[Crunch]

Why? How can you possibly say that it's not worth bothering with the comparitive efficiency of two ways of doing the same thing.

Frankly, that's the central point. Even at the new costs these Augmentations are still vfery efficient compared to other methods of doing the same thing. They were universal before because the cost was so low that they were ridiculously under valued.

If you can counter that argument do so, but dismissing it because you can't argue it is (while sadly typical) not actually an argument.

[All4BigGuns]

25k per level is not ridiculously under priced. It's actually still a little bit high (20k per level would be more fair and allow for appropriate rate of advancement). Now, the price in SR4 could be said to be under priced depending on who is looking at it.

[Crunch]

25k per level is not ridiculously under priced. It's actually still a little bit high (20k per level would be more fair and allow for appropriate rate of advancement). Now, the price in SR4 could be said to be under priced depending on who is looking at it.

Compared to what? At the old prices it was so much cheaper than any other way of doing the same thing that it was a given. Under the new prices it is still incredibly efficient compared to raising attributes with Adept powers or Karma. Augmentations are still the least investment for return of augmentations, there's just no longer exponentially better.

[Mäx]

Also, the prices you listed are not only the highest ratings for all of those augmentations, but are the cost for paying full price and going directly from having nothing to full rating.  So unless your GM decides your sammy must simply throw all his old 'ware into a box and throw it into the ocean, you won't be paying that whole price at once.

Ugrading ware means taking out the old one and putting in a new one, your not gonna get much at all for the used one, maybe enought to cover the cost of the doctors time to do the installing.

And yeah those are high end pieces i listed, but those are what you upgrade to after chargen.

[All4BigGuns]

25k per level is not ridiculously under priced. It's actually still a little bit high (20k per level would be more fair and allow for appropriate rate of advancement). Now, the price in SR4 could be said to be under priced depending on who is looking at it.

Compared to what? At the old prices it was so much cheaper than any other way of doing the same thing that it was a given. Under the new prices it is still incredibly efficient compared to raising attributes with Adept powers or Karma. Augmentations are still the least investment for return of augmentations, there's just no longer exponentially better.

You're too stuck on the prices in SR4, which I admitted that some could consider those too cheap.

[ZeConster]

While the price increases do seem a bit steep (at 250k --> 470k max at chargen, anything beyond x2 is basically only there for balance reasons, and since I've never played a samurai, I lack expertise on that), I would like to point out that if you go with the Karma exchange option Season 5 of Missions uses, characters can sacrifice one week and up to 5 Karma per month for 2k per Karma. If you assume 10k profit per month normally, that cuts the time needed to obtain enough funds for your ware in half. Plus it works the other way too, so after you get the ware you want, you can spend the next few months sacrificing nuyen for Karma at the same ratio, so you can focus on skills instead.

[Crunch]

25k per level is not ridiculously under priced. It's actually still a little bit high (20k per level would be more fair and allow for appropriate rate of advancement). Now, the price in SR4 could be said to be under priced depending on who is looking at it.

Compared to what? At the old prices it was so much cheaper than any other way of doing the same thing that it was a given. Under the new prices it is still incredibly efficient compared to raising attributes with Adept powers or Karma. Augmentations are still the least investment for return of augmentations, there's just no longer exponentially better.

You're too stuck on the prices in SR4, which I admitted that some could consider those too cheap.

[All4BigGuns]

If that's the case, then the karma costs should have gone down to x4 instead of x5 to raise attributes (with skills having a cost of new rating instead of double new rating). The prices on implants that are actually useful should NOT have gone up to the absolutely insane and ridiculous levels they now sit at.

[Crunch]

The levels are neither insane, nor ridiculous.

[Michael Chandra]

They are, as I stated before, at the point where being heavily augmented is not a matter of chargen + 1 year, it is under basic rewards and no karma-nuyen trading a matter of chargen + 5+ years. If the rewards are adjusted by a GM, it's a different matter. If you dislike the flavour of the slow character progress, which these base rules are written for, then you definitely want to boost the reward amounts. If you say a runner would retire at a lousy 1m cash, then slash ALL prices in half. Not just ware. All of them. Lifestyle, gear, focus buying costs, all of them.