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Trolls aren't broken, but do seem racist: technical arguments

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Reaver

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« Reply #90 on: <08-10-13/0051:47> »
There is an old joke about palladium games:

"He who uses the oldest book, dies first"
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #91 on: <08-10-13/0513:02> »
If it's more expensive to raise an attribute, it's the same as not being able to raise it to that point: You're being limited based on what homo sapiens X you are. If people went "yeah, X people can be as smart as Y people but it takes them far more effort" others would freak.
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Dragonslayer

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« Reply #92 on: <08-10-13/1156:07> »
There is an old joke about palladium games:

"He who uses the oldest book, dies first"

Unless you're a Glitter Boy, anyway.

Raiden

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« Reply #93 on: <08-10-13/1325:21> »
Um.

I think I'll bow out now.  Thanks, everyone--okay, some of you--for a useful examination of the topic. 

I can't help but find it odd, and a little troubling, that so many people are in such a hurry to defend the plausibility of a hermetically sealed and ahistorical game setting that nevertheless dips freely into recent American and global history...except when it's attractive to ignore major strands of it.  Everyone's awfully in a hurry to tell me why the game is immune to the question I posed, and while I find some arguments fair, others are just...well, they could stand some breaths between sentences.  And fewer exclamation points.  The depth of confidence with which some here have declared 'Nope! Not similar! They're a different SPECIES, bro, so it's not at all weird!' is a little, well, weird.  I'm a bit disappointed no one wants to address my points about the game as an artifact situated in, you know, the history of the world we're all actually from.  There are resonances that might--might--be picking up between this tidy bubble of a game world and the world we all still live in.  Resonances that raise questions about how we interface with our cute lil' bubble of a game world. 

But cool.  Thanks for considering it.  Game balance:  FTW.

I am a bit behind but as said, noone is equal, fair is not equal, why should humans be kept from having 9 body naturally? why should trolls be kept from having 6 logic naturally? simple, nature, nothing is the same, in order to obtain something must be given. That throughout history. did you know most diseases came from advancements in technological and agricultural areas? but thats a bit off topic though relevant. not why are you so upset about trolls having a 5 max logic? why you not upset humans cant have a 9 body max? stop being discriminate about one particular thing. In a perfect world I still do not believe everyone would be the same, how boring is that, potential to be the same? possibly but thats pushing it.
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Maddoux1

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« Reply #94 on: <08-10-13/1506:22> »
Alrighty, I think I can win this debate.  Lets go.

1) When 1st Edition SR came out, it was strongly tied with ED.  Same company, same world.  That's just a conceit that cannot be denied.
2) Books and movies from the 5th Age have "trolls" who are dumber but stronger than humans.
3) Their Pattern is reinforced by these 5th Age books and movies.  (Maybe in contrast to 1st Ed ED, but I doubt it.)
4) Goblinization occurs, and Trolls take their name from fantasy novels.
5) The Pattern is applied to them, creating a mythic limit to their intelligence.
6) Oh... shit just got real.  Literally.

benedictmercury

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« Reply #95 on: <08-10-13/1521:22> »
Others might freak, but then, they get all bothered all the time about race. Being hysterical and prone to offense doesn't mean they have real arguments. I don't mind being un-PC, just being maybe truly racist--a term I'd rather define for myself than have political agitators define it for me.

I see nothing heinous about saying that factors beyond a people's control--access to education, nutrition, discrimination, abuse, etc--make it harder to reach developmental pinnacles. The extra points would reflect rarity and the considerable game advantage of the elevated stat--just like Troll Priority A.

And Raiden, dude. Think about what you're saying. It's fine if you accept that meta humans magically have no connotative connection to humanity or history; then, sure, alien races, different features. I don accept that disconnect. And if meta humans DO come in context of humanity...like I said, nobody is worried about racism if black people are faster.

Raiden

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« Reply #96 on: <08-10-13/1539:52> »
sorry, I kinda worded  paragraph badly. was half asleep haha. But what the point I was trying to make is you can't say that trolls are being viewed from a racists standpoint  with there logic being 5 max. Without also saying that humans having a bod max of six is not also racist. Now even in the real world races are different, even if slightly, acknowledging that fact is not racism in itself. Its the part that comes after, judging yourself better than another due to your race is racism. admitting your different from each other in some ways is not.
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Reaver

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« Reply #97 on: <08-10-13/1551:27> »
Alrighty, I think I can win this debate.  Lets go.

1) When 1st Edition SR came out, it was strongly tied with ED.  Same company, same world.  That's just a conceit that cannot be denied.
2) Books and movies from the 5th Age have "trolls" who are dumber but stronger than humans.
3) Their Pattern is reinforced by these 5th Age books and movies.  (Maybe in contrast to 1st Ed ED, but I doubt it.)
4) Goblinization occurs, and Trolls take their name from fantasy novels.
5) The Pattern is applied to them, creating a mythic limit to their intelligence.
6) Oh... shit just got real.  Literally.

Shadowrun 1e: 1989
Earthdawn 1993

Earthdawn is a spinoff of SR and took its queues from SR.... In short your chicken was preceeded by your egg :p
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Maddoux1

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« Reply #98 on: <08-10-13/1558:07> »
Then the Pattern reinforced itself.  The Pattern always existed.  No worries about chicken and egg here.  Both are delicious.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #99 on: <08-10-13/1700:43> »
I see nothing heinous about saying that factors beyond a people's control--access to education, nutrition, discrimination, abuse, etc--make it harder to reach developmental pinnacles. The extra points would reflect rarity and the considerable game advantage of the elevated stat--just like Troll Priority A.
So you're saying it's impossible for a Troll to exist who does not suffer from those factors? It's impossible for a troll to grow up with good education, nutrition, no abuse, not suffering from discrimination, etc?
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benedictmercury

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« Reply #100 on: <08-10-13/1719:40> »
No.  Not all trolls would have to climb through that.  The cost would then just reflect the rarity of the dude that DIDN'T. 

Maybe points expense is not a good mechanic to use to reflect rarity.  Haven't thought that part all the way through.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #101 on: <08-10-13/1723:23> »
No.  Not all trolls would have to climb through that.  The cost would then just reflect the rarity of the dude that DIDN'T. 
So according to that logic, the rare example has to still pay more than a human? Or is a player simply not allowed to play that rare case? And what about humans who don't have the right circumstances? Shouldn't any runner pay more?
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Mithlas

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« Reply #102 on: <08-10-13/1939:07> »
One thing I want to point out that I haven't seen brought up yet is that the racial attributes are not necessarily the innate capability of each possible member of that race - if it was, we'd probably be seeing higher maximums for a number of different things. The reason why I bring this up is because of another racially adjusted stat that is in the game numbers, but not always in the fluff: elves and their +2 Charisma. Are all elves born naturally socially smarter? No, but there is a tendency for society to expect them to be somehow socially exceptional, and this creates a proclivity (or greater ability to take advantage of others' expectations). We're not seeing genetic intelligence as much as the basic tendency that society expects, tolerates, and allows. That's why Trolls, which are discriminated against, have lower maximum (and therefore generally lower average) Logic. They're denied opportunities and express as lower logic.

I'm not ragging on you all for seeing this the way you do, but I AM surprised that no one else seems too weirded out by it
I understand all of the points that you're making, and if I was going farther into the game and its dramatic/storytelling side I might agree, but...

Don't think too hard about gameplay balance stuff

Lickintoad

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« Reply #103 on: <08-10-13/2008:23> »
... elves and their +2 Charisma. Are all elves born naturally socially smarter? No, but there is a tendency for society to expect them to be somehow socially exceptional, and this creates a proclivity (or greater ability to take advantage of others' expectations). We're not seeing genetic intelligence as much as the basic tendency that society expects, tolerates, and allows. That's why Trolls, which are discriminated against, have lower maximum (and therefore generally lower average) Logic. They're denied opportunities and express as lower logic.
To some extent I agree, but the mechanics don't really follow the logic there.  Elves have a naturally higher charisma potential because they are elves.  That Charisma works across the entire game system.  My elf technomancer with 8 Charisma gets an Attack program rating of 8 in SR5.  The Matrix doesn't care that she's an elf, and, indeed, her icon in no way shows her inherent elfness.  Yet there she is, running with a stupid high Attack rating on her living persona.  Modifiers in social situations have their own mechanic, with Qualities like First Impression.  Maybe someone likes elves enough to warrant a +1 or +2 dice pool or limit modifier on interactions.  Of course, the opposite could be true, and someone hates elves enough to knock dice off the test or adjust the limit for that NPC.  Now, it could be that social standing have given elves a naturally higher charisma because the fact that pretty much everyone loves them really helps their confidence and self-assurance, but that bump to the ego still manifests as an actual change.

In the same regard, trolls have a lower logic potential than most because they're trolls.  It's a quirk of the subspecies.  People don't become less intelligent because society believes they are.  There are a lot of very smart people out there that society would deem "dumb" simply because they don't take standardized tests well or outright don't care.  That wouldn't reduce their capacity for logical thought at all--though it might lead to depression and other self-esteem issues.

This is not to say that there can't be exceptional members of the subspecies.  But that's what Exceptional Attribute represents.

Lorewise, remember that, every 5000 or so years, magic goes through a cycle, where it waxes and wanes.  In the Fifth World, Magic waned enough that the subspecies' traits were hidden behind that fact that everyone looked like a normal human.  With the return of magic to the world, the subspecies have retaken their actual appearances.  Even in Earthdawn, the scholars at one time believed that the Namegiver races were all members of a single species that evolved in different ways.  When the Fifth World came about, they were proven right.  And then we forgot about it.

Is that racist?  Not really.  It's simply science.  Fake science meant to justify codified difference between races in a roleplaying game, but science all the same.

benedictmercury

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« Reply #104 on: <08-10-13/2123:58> »
That's the 'alien races' argument, which works fine. I've never read Earthdawn, nor dipped very far into SR mythology, so to me, it's all just people, and now some are armored and dimmer. Again: in-game, the arguments are sound; meta-game, I can't ignore what the game world conditions evoke. Maybe if I was more of a fantasy guy this kind of thing would feel natural.

I think some people here are kidding themselves about intelligence v other qualities in the equality conversation, I gotsta say, mein friends. In a primitive world it'd be one thing, but as civilization grows, logic=mastery (well, that and plenty of evil). A species in a postmodern world that's dumber than us on average is fuuuuucked, hulks or no hulks.

 

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