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Trolls aren't broken, but do seem racist: technical arguments

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Maddoux1

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« Reply #105 on: <08-10-13/2205:37> »
Not exactly benedict, there's no theory in the origin of the Named Races and their ties to Metahumanity.  It is fact, undeniable fact.  By only exposing yourself to the surface of Shadowrun's history and reality, you're not able to take a look at the big picture.

So what you're seeing, being such a small scope focus, is thrown out of proportion.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant)

Absolutely, if you only look at Trolls and say "They're Black People!"  you'll see the books as Racist.  (And you'll see the rest of us as racist as well.  Hats off to your flaming ability, though, its been a very interesting read).  But, you're touching the leg and thinking its a tree trunk.

Trolls, in Shadowrun, are of Human Stock, but they're genetic code has been thrown out the window and replaced in a fit of pain, blood, and drek.  They've become something that was and something that will be again but was not just prior.  To try to put some science to it... how much of human DNA is considered "Junk"?  (Noncoding DNA).  For Trolls, someone has gone in and reactivated it, and now it is expressing itself.  Are they still human?

If you want a "scientific reason", we've given it to you.  You obviously don't want that.

We've given you reasons why it makes sense within the context of the 6th World.  You obviously don't want that either.

Fact is, in the SR verse, Trolls have a limit to their natural aptitude.  For whatever reason (I personally like the Pattern), half (half!) of their dice pool is limited.  But nothing says that an industrious Troll cannot raise his Logic based skills above any level.  With work and dedication, he can get his dice pool above humans.  Though I suppose it does impact his Mental Limit.  *Shrugs*


The fact that the rules evoke a dark and gritty world where things just aren't fair... well, that tells me that the writers did a great job.  The rules are reinforcing the feeling in the game.  Congrats, writers!

Wailer

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« Reply #106 on: <08-10-13/2307:14> »
Perhaps you should invest yourself in the Mythology before you really begin to attempt to analyze it. It's like claiming to do an in-depth study of the Bible after reading the back of a Chick comic.

Reaver

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« Reply #107 on: <08-11-13/0229:04> »
wish I could remember where I read this, but it's in a 4e sourcebook some where (will go looking for the page and book when I have more time)

But apparently, the transformation to troll, is EXTREMELY painful! As in Neuralogically damaging painful! This could be the reason for the lower mental stats.. and makes some sense as well.

After all, we are not talking bout growing 6 inches in a year (which can lead to "growing pains" in modern preteens) we are talking about growing 4 feet, adding 300 pounds of mass, teeth growing in size, NEW teeth growing, boney knobs forming, Horns sprouting out of flesh. Arms getting extended.. and anything else I missed. ALL happening in as little as 1 hour or over the course of 2 weeks (if you are extremely unlucky)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Critias

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« Reply #108 on: <08-11-13/0236:22> »
Perhaps you should be a bit less of a condescending prick and...
[Ron Burgundy]
Boy, that escalated quickly.
[/Ron]

CanRay

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« Reply #109 on: <08-11-13/0317:26> »
Mungo hatz dat iz noo lunger 1337.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

Mara

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« Reply #110 on: <08-11-13/0545:50> »
Honestly, I really think the tinges of racism that the OP are reacting to might exist. However, the mechanics exist to
help reinforce the setting. And, with the changes to 4th and 5th Edition from earlier, I will say that it is far LESS against
the Orks and Trolls then it used to be. Trolls and Orks, though have a number of issues to deal with in setting.

First is the simple fact that they are, generally, at the bottom of the heap. The are heavily in the Barrens, and frequently
get less then adequate schooling. This latter is for a number of reasons. With Orks, it is because they develop faster.
For Trolls it is because they get BIGGER and STRONGER faster. Someone tries to bully them in school, and they hit
back, accidentally injuring, or even killing the other kid is a much greater possibility. On top of that, you are going to have
parents and teachers and school staff looking at Ork and Troll kids as "troublemakers" since they have such physical
differences. (A side effect of Ork accelerated development, BTW, is that they are trying to learn stuff AFTER the times when
modern developmental psychologists believe it should be learned at, after the brain can best learn it, meaning they will also
have a harder time learning things because of when they are learning them.)

Second, due to the likelihood of them being at the bottom of the heap, they are not going to get the best nutrition. Orks
will be needing to eat more growing up(and competing against their siblings) because they are growing faster then
humans, while trolls will be needing to eat ALOT more because they are growing faster, and are BIGGER. Malnutrition
effects many things, including brain development.

Finally, they have the prejudices of society. Anything they do is going to be looked at through the lens of the Dumb Tusker,
or Stupid Trog. After a point, it might just be easier to give in to those stereotypes then keep trying to buck the system.

However, Orks and Trolls can reach the same average Logic, Intuition, and Charisma as anyone else, and can get
to high ends just as easy. This is because, frankly, the school systems, even the worst, are good at getting most people
to a reasonable point(the mythical Average of 3, and above average of 4), and you are flat out going to develop certain
social skills and reach a certains trength of personality if you interact with people regularly growing up. Now, for a Troll
or Ork to get Logic 6? Yeah they are going to have to work for it, work hard, fight through all those things that are conspiring
to hold them back. Prove to the teachers they are just as good as the humans kids, not hit that kid that was throwing rocks
at them, get better food in the right quantities. It is not just applying themselves in school, it is fighting EVERYTHING in the
dark, dystopian world that is Shadowrun that is trying to keep them down. And, that is why they take Exceptional Attribute
Logic.

Is the mechanic itself racist? No. Does it convey the underlying racism in the setting? Yes. Does it convey that there are
differences between Trolls, Orks,and humans, through multiple factors, that can effect the ability of those groups to learn?
Does it convey that there is, indeed, institutionalized racism in the setting that is there to put down those deemed different?
Yes, yes it does.

I think, ultimately, the issue is that one has to remember that Shadowrun is not our modern world. It is a dystopian world
where if the square peg won't fit into a round hole, they will beat the square peg in until it either forces its way in, or it breaks.
Trolls are the ultimate in Square Pegs, with Orks being only a little less. The world will try its darnedest to make them fit
into what it wants. It will not, like in the real world, try to help them adapt with special schooling or counseling. If they can't
fit into the schooling provided by the private, for-profit corp that is running the schools, well...that corp isn't going to cut into
its bottom line to help them. That sort of bleeding heart crap is expensive!

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #111 on: <08-11-13/0603:42> »
I was perfectly willing to debate with you, but with the lashing out, and statements such as "some people here are kidding themselves about intelligence v other qualities in the equality conversation" and especially "I gotsta say, mein friends", you are basically targetting the people themselves for not agreeing with you, and deliberately making us feel as if you're considering us nazis. And at that point I no longer feel comfortable continuing this debate. With the recent cussing and all those low remarks, you are no longer trying to talk fairly about this, you are just expressing contempt to us.

@Reaver: Wasn't there research recently about kids who get in a fight and get injured on the head end up losing a few IQ points?
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

IKerensky

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« Reply #112 on: <08-11-13/0720:29> »
That is NOT racism... That is using a common scale to evaluate different entities.

Troll brain is different from humain brain, different in size and form.

Education and knowledge is not intelligence. You can be educated but dumb. You can start un-educated and learn. You cant learn to be smart. You can train your smartness, exercise your brain, lure IQ test by practising their kind of exercice. But the only way to become a genius is to be born one. It depend on your physical brain configuration, just like physics. And troll have a brain configurated differently...

Why ? There was Troll mages, scientist, artist and thus since ancient history, there even have been Trolls kingdom. Yet Troll aren't able of the mental prowess of the weaker races... Why ?

Because they are too strong and resistant to their environment, they didn't had to evolve the logical skills needed for survival, and thus their brain inner work is simpler. Let's put a dwarf, an human and a Troll in a wild setting. Human will need to make tools and weapon and to find way to reach food If he want to survive. Dwarf had to be extra smart compared to human because he is smaller and slower, so more vulnerable and have an harder time reaching things. Troll could just bare handly manage everything that come into his way and transform predator into food, he can take everything he need (including from the weaker namegivers).

That is a nature thing, the stronger and more dangerous you are the dumber you become. It is for the weak and vulnerable things to develop cunning and intelligence.

Nath

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« Reply #113 on: <08-11-13/0757:59> »
First is the simple fact that they are, generally, at the bottom of the heap. The are heavily in the Barrens, and frequently get less then adequate schooling.
Humans, elves, dwarves, orks and trolls are, generally, not living in North American cities. There are at least one or two billions of humans in Africa or Asia who do get less than adequate schooling. I don't think that should limit the attributes maximums of one born in Seattle Downtown.

Mara

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« Reply #114 on: <08-11-13/0902:33> »
First is the simple fact that they are, generally, at the bottom of the heap. The are heavily in the Barrens, and frequently get less then adequate schooling.
Humans, elves, dwarves, orks and trolls are, generally, not living in North American cities. There are at least one or two billions of humans in Africa or Asia who do get less than adequate schooling. I don't think that should limit the attributes maximums of one born in Seattle Downtown.

Maybe, but at the same time, they are going to have the same prejudices from humans holding them back. And they are going to be
in places where strength is survival, so their natural strength and toughness is going to get them an edge where they won't have the
incentive to put the extra work(read: Exceptional Attribute) to rise beyond the expectations of them.

FastJack

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« Reply #115 on: <08-11-13/0921:14> »
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cowtipping_extremist

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« Reply #116 on: <08-11-13/1011:27> »
8 pages on this? Seriously?

GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #117 on: <08-11-13/1105:20> »
Quote
8 pages on this? Seriously?
We're an overly verbose crowd. would you prefer eight pages on cow tipping or other unprovoked assaults on innocent herbivores? :)

Digital_Viking

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« Reply #118 on: <08-11-13/1112:22> »
Quote
8 pages on this? Seriously?
We're an overly verbose crowd. would you prefer eight pages on cow tipping or other unprovoked assaults on innocent herbivores? :)

Depends - are we talking melee assaults, or something fun with a 40mm?
"Which is better and which is worse,I wonder - To understand or to not understand?"
"Understanding is always worse. To not understand is to never carry the burden of responsibility. Understanding is pain. But anything less is unacceptable."

GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #119 on: <08-11-13/1259:10> »

Quote
Depends - are we talking melee assaults, or something fun with a 40mm?
I'm talking a DV 11 P Reach 2  giraffe kick to a hunter's head.

 

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