[MaxKojote]

@Reaver: Not necessarily effeminate, or submissive. Bottom generally denotes that you prefer to receive, rather than give. You can be a dominating bottom ('Power bottom'). And you can be masculine about it.

@Madbear: Well said. Although if you're commenting on elves, one has to wonder about the argument of whether female dwarves have beards.

@Ben: With regards to in-world racism, it as you implied varies from who is running the world. Some GMs are more likely to capitalise on it, while others won't care as much.

[Reaver]

@Reaver: Not necessarily effeminate, or submissive. Bottom generally denotes that you prefer to receive, rather than give. You can be a dominating bottom ('Power bottom'). And you can be masculine about it.

hmmm..

ok.


Do you know the term? "Chicks with dicks" was the vulgar definition of it but I am at a loss for the PC version of it now....

[benedictmercury]

Yeah, man, I don't mean trans bottoms.  I mean women.  With breasts, female bone structure and hormones. 

And a live, working johnson.

[MaxKojote]

@Reaver: The fun part is finding a PC term scattered among offensive terms. 'Shemale' was used for a while but it's a pretty good way to get a somewhat deserved black eye nowadays (as it implies you're calling them a prostitute). If you're talking about identifying as female within a male body, then it would be transgender. If you're talking about having identifying as female, with both female and male characteristics on your body, I guess that could be Intersex? It's not really accurate, but it's the closest definition I can find on the fly.

@Ben: I didn't mean them either. I'm talking about the term in general. 'Receiver' is a more accurate definition than 'submissive' or 'effeminate'.

[benedictmercury]

No, I feel you.  Though no one I've known that might fit the description would care too much for any term at all...outside of their select company, at which point it's all terms, mostly to rib each other with.

[Reaver]

Yeah, man, I don't mean trans bottoms.  I mean women.  With breasts, female bone structure and hormones. 

And a live, working johnson.

.
..
...
.....

um...err... um in the SR world, 

Yeah, man, I don't mean trans bottoms.  I mean women. With breasts, female bone structure and hormones. 

And a live, working Johnson

describes just about every Corp Exec female in the game! They all want something, they all need something, and they have their little Yes man (Mr. Johnson) go get it for them. (that would be you getting it. And Mr. Johnson pocketing get extra cash he screwed you outta for getting it.)

I am failing to see how this promotes "gender and sexualism equality"



<Wink>

[Mara]

If you want to talk big picture, o ye dismissers, I'll invite you one more time to address the point I've been making from the beginning.  Yes, I get the in-world justifications.  Yes, I agree; there's no racist intent inside the world design.  No, I don't think you guys are racist for defending the game.  But the game is an art object.  How close to real-world ills can an art object be before it can no longer pretend it has no political resonance?  No amount of in-game argument can answer that question.

You know..I had a whole post breaking things down...then I took a look at the actual skills involved in the attributes, and realized something:
The real reason for the lower caps isn't that the aptitudes...it is because otherwise, they would have to give individual penalties to most
of the skills. Why is that, you say? Let's look at the skills:

Under logic, we have:
Affected by social prejudices:
Academic Knowledges, Professional Knowledges.
Affected by Size:
All the Mechanic Skills, First Aid, Medicine, Hardware, Demolitions, Cybertechnology(due to the maintenance aspect), Forgery,
Armorer.
Unaffected by either:
Software, Computers, Cybercombat, Electronic Warfare, Arcana

Under Intuition, we have:
Affected by Social prejudices:
Interests Knowledge.
Affected by Size:
Disguise, Perception, Tracking, Artisan.
Unaffected by either:
Language, Street Knowledge, Navigation

In logic, Orks and trolls have a harder time with the SKILLS linked to Logic because of their being bigger then
humans. For Trolls, it is the same thing for Intuition. So, ultimately, it is NOT that they are "less intelligent." It
is that they just can't be as good at the skills covered by those attributes because they are bigger. The lowered
caps of the attributes are not because they are "less", it is because the attributes represent an across the board
penalty to the skills that would be penalized by the size of the Orks and Trolls. That the average Ork and Troll is
just as good at those as the average human or elf is a benefit of the 4th and 5th edition take on making attributes
a starting level and cap method, as opposed to the 1st through 3rd editions Bonus and Penalty method.

[benedictmercury]

On first glance, Mara...that was really f*cking helpful.  Man, that to me is a solid piece of technical thinking that neutralizes the problem.  I don't know if it'll scan under scrutiny, but I really like it.

[Reaver]

ahhh, out of the box thinking!

Well done Mara

[Mara]

ahhh, out of the box thinking!

Well done Mara

It started because I was going to point out some things relating to Intuition not being all mental, and I looked at the
wrong attribute chart, then realized "Wait...all these Logic skills have some issues where the troll hand as big as my
head is going to be clumsier doing these.." And then, I looked at the right column, and it was "Yeah..these are alot
more then just 'leaps of insight.' Actually, the realization came as I was looking at information for a logical argument,
and my brain said "Wait, hold it! So many of these skills, Trolls and Orks will have trouble with, not because they are
'dumber', but because they are bigger and more awkward..Trolls especially!"

Yeah, a Troll can be a darned good tracker...but he will never equal an Elf or Human, because he is BIGGER. MUCH
bigger. He has to get down on his belly to see thing that an Elf or Human can look at by dropping to knee and bending
over. And, part of being a good tracker is not just seeing and reading the trail, but being able to do so quickly. The extra
seconds can make losing pursuit much easier if you are being pursued by a Troll Tracker.

[UmaroVI]

@Reaver: The fun part is finding a PC term scattered among offensive terms. 'Shemale' was used for a while but it's a pretty good way to get a somewhat deserved black eye nowadays (as it implies you're calling them a prostitute). If you're talking about identifying as female within a male body, then it would be transgender. If you're talking about having identifying as female, with both female and male characteristics on your body, I guess that could be Intersex? It's not really accurate, but it's the closest definition I can find on the fly.

@Ben: I didn't mean them either. I'm talking about the term in general. 'Receiver' is a more accurate definition than 'submissive' or 'effeminate'.

"Transgender woman" or "trans woman" will generally not offend anyone and are appropriate regardless of whether the person in question has had sex reassignment surgery and/or hormone treatment. "Chicks with dicks" and "shemale" will offend many people FYI.

"Genderqueer" is a commonly accepted PC term for people who identify as neither men nor women. Note that it describes gender identification, not physical characteristics. "Intersex" is the analogue that describes physical characteristics and would be used (for example) to describe someone with androgen insensitivity syndrome.

[MaxKojote]

@Reaver: The fun part is finding a PC term scattered among offensive terms. 'Shemale' was used for a while but it's a pretty good way to get a somewhat deserved black eye nowadays (as it implies you're calling them a prostitute). If you're talking about identifying as female within a male body, then it would be transgender. If you're talking about having identifying as female, with both female and male characteristics on your body, I guess that could be Intersex? It's not really accurate, but it's the closest definition I can find on the fly.

@Ben: I didn't mean them either. I'm talking about the term in general. 'Receiver' is a more accurate definition than 'submissive' or 'effeminate'.

"Transgender woman" or "trans woman" will generally not offend anyone and are appropriate regardless of whether the person in question has had sex reassignment surgery and/or hormone treatment. "Chicks with dicks" and "shemale" will offend many people FYI.

"Genderqueer" is a commonly accepted PC term for people who identify as neither men nor women. Note that it describes gender identification, not physical characteristics. "Intersex" is the analogue that describes physical characteristics and would be used (for example) to describe someone with androgen insensitivity syndrome.

As I said, well-deserved black eye for calling someone 'shemale'.

In this scenario it would be a person with physical characteristics of both genders, but identifying as female. As far as I could tell, Intersex was the closest thing to it.

[Reaver]

you know...

Some people lose their tempers over the silliest things on this forum... and sometimes we push each other buttons too...

But at the end of the day we usually all want the same thing, a little new knowledge, a little new understanding, and something that makes us go "Wow, I didn't know THAT!"...




Now, did/do I need to know that we have so many "Sexual Freaks" on this site?!?!?!?!?! Did this make me feel better??

..... I think the light stands on tonight....

[benedictmercury]

In our universe we handle the unpopularness of the term 'chicks with dicks' with a combination of the typical protest and a counter-voice insisting that, since it's a new thing for born women to have fully functioning johnsons (down to sperm and good motility), it's cool.  Some of the latter claim they adopted the term themselves and with pride, others consider it not only a pejorative but an especially irritating one because it confuses the former use--males with breast augmentation,etc.--with the new one.  And so on.  Meanwhile, I get to play the cop NPC in question as a very cool and sexy chick, leaving the alpha-macho breeder horndogs in the party to have no choice but to be attracted to her.  And then SHE gets to actually be a bit of a bigot towards more gender-deleted 'genderqueer' types, who want to obliterate classic gender and have the full range of body augs to do it.

C'mon, Reavs.  A little Crying Game 2070 doesn't do it for you?

[GiraffeShaman]

Meanwhile, I get to play the cop NPC in question as a very cool and sexy chick, leaving the alpha-macho breeder horndogs in the party to have no choice but to be attracted to her.  And then SHE gets to actually be a bit of a bigot towards more gender-deleted 'genderqueer' types, who want to obliterate classic gender and have the full range of body augs to do it.

C'mon, Reavs.  A little Crying Game 2070 doesn't do it for you?

Many SR players are pretty jaded. We've had those Pornomancers causing feelings of attraction in all genders for quite a while now. Unfortunately my campaign with a Pornomancer ended. I was going to have their regular Mr. Johnson bring in a Pornomancer of his own for the negotiating session and treat him to his own medicine. Something like the James Bond/Silva scene.