[Mara]

See, I disagree there, benedictmercury. I do not think that forum rules make people passive aggressive. I think
passive-aggressive people use the rules to hide behind. I have seen people who, frankly, dance so close to rules
violations that you know they know the exact limits where the Mods will draw the lines.

Would it be nice if we didn't need rules to regulate behavior? Yes, it would. However, frankly, the Internet is full of
people who use the anonymity of the internet as a shield. They attack and harrass people because they get some
sort of sick pleasure from it. In a perfect world, this would not happen. Alas, we do not live in a perfect world.

I will say, though, benedictmercury, that while I was initially going to dismiss this thread as another person determined
to see racism in anything, you were actually polite and rather systematic in your approach. And, when an alternative
explanation for the mechanics was present that a) made sense and b) worked with both the game world and the mechanics,
you gave it due consideration. A lot more mature of a reaction then I would expect from many people on the Internet.

[benedictmercury]

I think we mean the same thing. I agree with your description.

As for the rest, I really appreciate that, Mara. Some read sarcasm, insinuations or attacks into my posts that I didn't intend, which I've found frustrating. And then eventually I lost my temper with the (barely) veiled undermining bits, about which I'm still embarrassed. I lose my cool at hysterical misinterpretations and snide manners.

Heated topics in this thread. Worth examining. Bound to ruffle feathers. Thanks again to everyone with productive contributions. I'm ready to call it a day on the whole thing if you guys are.

[Shade]

As we learn more about the brain? Sure. Possible. Any evidence so far? No.

This statement is exactly what I consider fallacious. There is plenty of 'evidence' for BOTH cases(intelligence variation vs. no variation) but nothing CONCLUSIVE. Those are not equivalent statements. And the scientific classification of species and subspecies are very nebulous. Under current reasoning a chihuahua is more closely related to a husky than the husky is to a wolf. Because of behavioral differences. Yet those behavioral differences diminish greatly even after only a couple of generations of domestication. It's not so cut and dry.

Judging purely on phenotype, I can only imagine that an alien would classify myself, a person of Asian descent and a person of African descent as different subspecies. The behavioral differences across those cultures is significant as well. Of course, it may not even be a matter of genetics in the fictional game world. Lower income, lower living standard correlate with lower intelligence(so far as we can measure). The relationship is not causally one-directional. Being raised in the ghetto will diminish your output relative to direct family members raised in different environments. The cause of ANY of this isn't really that clear. But I just don't think it's unreasonable to assume minor differences among such obviously different phenotypes. Of course, in the end...we all know it's primarily about game balance and interesting and different player choices.

[Shade]

They attack and harrass people because they get some sort of sick pleasure from it. In a perfect world, this would not happen. Alas, we do not live in a perfect world.

A man much smarter than I had the correct response to those very people. It was:

“I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.”

It's not that internet trolls don't exist. It's that silencing trolls should always be secondary to preserving open communication. Someone can have an important thing to add to discourse. The fact that they choose to say it in an offensive way should not relegate the idea itself to censorship. Being thin skinned has no value while being able to formulate a correct idea, even if enunciated poorly and offensively, has value.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm NOT implying that this forum does silence people. To my knowledge, it does not. Nor have I ever had a report filed against me in ANY internet venue of which I'm aware. But someone earlier made the statement of something like: 'people who don't like abuse and report buttons are always trolls in my experience'. It must be convenient to go through life assuming guilt or wrongdoing of anyone who disagrees with you. It spares you all that actual thought. After all, there's no need to consider the opinion of a troll, once you've branded someone as such.

[Reaver]

As we learn more about the brain? Sure. Possible. Any evidence so far? No.

This statement is exactly what I consider fallacious. There is plenty of 'evidence' for BOTH cases(intelligence variation vs. no variation) but nothing CONCLUSIVE. Those are not equivalent statements. And the scientific classification of species and subspecies are very nebulous. Under current reasoning a chihuahua is more closely related to a husky than the husky is to a wolf. Because of behavioral differences. Yet those behavioral differences diminish greatly even after only a couple of generations of domestication. It's not so cut and dry.

Judging purely on phenotype, I can only imagine that an alien would classify myself, a person of Asian descent and a person of African descent as different subspecies. The behavioral differences across those cultures is significant as well. Of course, it may not even be a matter of genetics in the fictional game world. Lower income, lower living standard correlate with lower intelligence(so far as we can measure). The relationship is not causally one-directional. Being raised in the ghetto will diminish your output relative to direct family members raised in different environments. The cause of ANY of this isn't really that clear. But I just don't think it's unreasonable to assume minor differences among such obviously different phenotypes. Of course, in the end...we all know it's primarily about game balance and interesting and different player choices.

Well, a lot of things we talk about are subjective... even the tests we run are subjective For a long time, IQ tests were thought of to be the best way to determine intelligence.... and a rating system was developed (you know, so those assholes out there can go "I have an IQ of 121! listen to me now!") but then some people disagreed... and test were done, and done, and done again. until you get to now, where people finally admit that IQ tests MAY not be the best way to determine intelligence (BUT IT STILL COULD BE!!!!!!!).

As you point out too, a lot of what we accept as "evidence" comes from our social background. If your social back ground comes from a teaching that says "Yours elders are the wisest", you would question anything said that went against the word of your elders.... regardless of who said it. And, depending on your social model, morals, ethnic views, education, and world view, you may believe that communication between people outside of your "zone" to be impossible. And you could be right.


But we still try And for the most part we get through to each other..... but not until we figure out exactly what the other person means as "Evidence". From there we try to frame our conversation to get our points and views across. And from there, we get 21 pages of topic...... with 18 of them being "SCREW YOU!"-"NO SCREW YOU" posts


I have found these rules to be helpful on the internets and in dealing with people on the internets.... (But, yes, you may have found others, or different ones. But yours don't matter. My evidence says so! )


1: THICK SKIN REQUIRED

Currently something like 4.5 BILLION people are online. Considering that I can't go shopping without me running into some asshat I desperately hate, the chances are good I will run into a lot of those in the web. For whatever reason, those same people seem to like saying and doing to most inappropriate things. (I am guessing that they get beat up a lot). Add to that, the "invisibility" of the web, and people think they can do whatever they want! Deal with it,  or get off. The web ain't going to change.

2: English don't mean English

Just cause the text on the screen is in English, doesn't mean that the other people "talking" on the web speak it, or think it. And just cause you think "English" don't mean understand "English" either. A Fag. A torch, A rubber. A loaf. These are mean different things to different people. Don't assume you know an insult from a complement, you just may be surprised at what your "online buddy-buddy" actually called you

3: Watch the world burn

No matter what you say, no matter what you do, there always seems to be that retard on a forum banging head into the wall while screaming "The sky is red, the sky is red!!" This is what the ignore button is for. Learn it. Use it. Love it. Honest it take the stress out of the day, and keep you from going "There went 10 minutes of my life i'll never get back" after reading this moron's new pabblem post about what nerf/OP/cheat/whine is his newest issue. And you can bad mouth them, and not worry about their response! (it's kinda fun!)

4: Laugh at everything!

No matter the topic, laugh at it. Good humor can carry you a long way in a debate. Just don't share it. No one likes to hear someone go "LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL YOU'RE A MORON!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!" I know you're doing it (cause I do it ALL THE TIME HERE!!!)  Just keep it out of your posts as much as you can. And if you can't, might I suggest Rules 3 or 1 for you to try out?



*******

Folks, we all take what is said here far too seriously Sit back, relax, have a beer, ENJOY your self.

[Crunch]

EDIT: To be clear, I'm NOT implying that this forum does silence people. To my knowledge, it does not. Nor have I ever had a report filed against me in ANY internet venue of which I'm aware. But someone earlier made the statement of something like: 'people who don't like abuse and report buttons are always trolls in my experience'. It must be convenient to go through life assuming guilt or wrongdoing of anyone who disagrees with you. It spares you all that actual thought. After all, there's no need to consider the opinion of a troll, once you've branded someone as such.

It must be convenient to go through life misquoting people when the original text is just above you in the same thread.

[Shade]

Okay, fine. I can go that way.

Whatever. I find that generally that sort of belief is held by people who have abused the rules, been punished for it, and created a persecution complex for themselves out of the experience.

You are directly stating that you believe people who have a problem with the rules are generally people who abuse the rules. The direct implication you are making is that there is no valid reason to disagree with the rules. This creates a scenario where the rules are always valid and correct. After all, anyone who disagrees with them is not disagreeing with them out of principle but instead of out self-interest. See how that works? You attack someone's motives immediately while dismissing the content of their argument. Exactly what I said above. I just shortened it. If I am misinterpreting your position, please let me know.

] I don't know you however, so you could genuinely believe that incivility and rudeness fosters a free exchange of ideas. That hasn't been my experience (and I've been known to slug with the worst of them on my off days) but you're entitled to your opinion.

Incorrect. I don't believe that incivility necessarily fosters free exchange of ideas. Rather, what I believe is that censorship whatever the reason, by definition, inherently inhibits the exchange of ideas. I'm not saying being rude is good, I'm saying that censoring is far more wrong than merely being rude. And censoring directly erodes the exchange of ideas.

[Crunch]

Actually no that's not what I said. You might try reading it again.

[Shade]

Which part? Please clarify. As I stated, if I'm misunderstanding please explain how. Communication will not be improved be me re-reading it for a 5th or 6th time. It needs to be restated to clear up my misapprehension.

[calaen]

Right, the internet is a strange place.  People will say things to each other they never would in person - why?  They are largely anonymous.  I have a long held belief that to many people the person staring at the other screen does not exist - this person goes unseen, unheard by voice, and the only evidence to the reader of their existence is text.  Not even the graphical interaction of a video game.

Its pretty easy to behave poorly under such circumstances.

There is also a lack of fear of reprisal.  At most, on these forums, you are likely to get a ban (I don't think anyone on these forums would be so poorly behaved as to go much farther than that... then again, we are talking about runners here.) so its not a heavy sentence - this can breed a lack of civility.

End of the day, here is how you deal with someone being hateful, insultive, or, even stupid.  Don't try to change their minds.  Don't argue with them - there will be those on the internet, who will welcome debate in the spirit of what it is: a mental exercise and chance to learn something, perhaps a chance to lay one's own incorrect beliefs to rest.  Many however, are not going to be such shining examples of hope for metahumanity.  Many are just going to be the stereotypical hate generator.  If you try to change these people's minds, you will end up with a headache and high blood pressure, possibly even the realization that it just isn't worth it.

There is also the possibility that you just might be wrong, and that'll make you 'that guy'.  Don't be that guy.

[benedictmercury]

I'm with Reaver.  Let's have a beer.  Dude, all those exclamation points give me a headache and I may continue to believe your relativism regarding race is unsound, but I really like your spirit.  I'll argue with you anytime.

I'm such an Internet comment board virgin that I only just now, in this thread, learned what I can now easily see everyone mature in these matters has known for a decade or more:  that the absence of any threat of reprisal can't be solved with the techniques you'd use to solve that shit in a live conversation.  A shaming piece of 'what you just said was snide, self-aggrandizing, misrepresentative and contemptuous' will end your woes live if you carry weight, but here it just starts fires.  Which, you know, you'd think would be obvious, but it never occurred to me to think about it.  I truly am that net-tarded.

Leave it to a racism question to devolve into a study in online manners.

I'm out.  May pop in at some point in the future at the site if I have a good one, but otherwise I'm outta here.  Don't really hang out online.  Reavs, Crunch, Mara et al--take her easy.  Other guys that ended up offended--sorry I peeved you or you misunderstood me.  Still other guys I beefed with and generally found haughty or unpleasant--no hard feelings.

[Mara]

Amusing story: Once while discussing stuff from a Forensic anthropology course I was taking in an
online chat environment, by pointing out the superficial(the brain cavity is the same size and shape, regardless
of features like a thicker or more sloped brow) used to determined ethnicity of bones(which is needed for
consulting missing persons databases to try and identify remains), I was called "racist." (Of course, they
really got upset when I pointed out that there was a set of formulas for determining height from bone
fragments that is extremely accurate, but ONLY for meso-americans, and that it literally does not work
with any other ethnicity.)

[Reaver]

Amusing story: Once while discussing stuff from a Forensic anthropology course I was taking in an
online chat environment, by pointing out the superficial(the brain cavity is the same size and shape, regardless
of features like a thicker or more sloped brow) used to determined ethnicity of bones(which is needed for
consulting missing persons databases to try and identify remains), I was called "racist." (Of course, they
really got upset when I pointed out that there was a set of formulas for determining height from bone
fragments that is extremely accurate, but ONLY for meso-americans, and that it literally does not work
with any other ethnicity.)

hmmm.. interesting.


DO you know if there is a separate formula for say, eastern, or European? or is this unique only to meso-american?

[Eldritch]

Well, if it makes y'all feel any better, I just joined this forum and I have to say that a 13 page argument about the Civil Rights of Trolls is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard of.  That's not a shot at anybody specifically, but for fucks sake, will you dudes step back and realize how absurd that conversation is?

[Sendaz]

Well, if it makes y'all feel any better, I just joined this forum and I have to say that a 13 page argument about the Civil Rights of Trolls is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard of.  That's not a shot at anybody specifically, but for fucks sake, will you dudes step back and realize how absurd that conversation is?

Be glad you weren't here for the 20 page discussion about Do French Canadians get Rights then.

Also the answer to the above: Yes, they get Rights.  They also get Lefts, Right uppercuts and Jabs.