[Xenon]

It's not not firing for 6s, since you spend 3s not firing. Actions don't happen in an instant, they consume time. So when you said not firing for 6s, I assumed you meant not firing for 2 Action Phases.

Ahh. Yes that make sense.

But when you only pull the trigger once per action phase it will take ~3 seconds until you pull the trigger again in the next action phase if you only have one action phase per combat turn. And it will take ~6 seconds between your two shots if you want to reset the recoil if you only have one action phase per combat turn.

when you fire in a complex action you fire 1 bullet every second (or 1 bullet every half second if you have 11-20 initiative score). I can somewhat understand that you get progressive recoil then. I still can not understand why you can't have enough recoil compensation to fully absorb the recoil. A light pistol in a gyromount should simply never get enough recoil no matter how many bullets you fire - even if you fire a bullet every half second with no pause.


I would like to see a rule where only uncompensated recoil (recoil - recoil compensation; per action phase) would carry over. As it is now recoil compensation only count once, when you begin to fire, and then it does not matter how much recoil compensation you have - you will never have enough to stop that light pistol from getting out of control.... which is kinda silly tbh.

[Michael Chandra]

In that case, wouldn't it be a better idea for you to have a houserule where the Recoil Compensation of the gun resets every combat turn? This way the strain on the body & gyromounts still applies and the RC of the gun itself matters.

By the way, see the recoil penalty more as the intensity as it hits you and your arm tires from the stress. Then it makes more sense.

[trunglefever]

In that case, wouldn't it be a better idea for you to have a houserule where the Recoil Compensation of the gun resets every combat turn? This way the strain on the body & gyromounts still applies and the RC of the gun itself matters.

By the way, see the recoil penalty more as the intensity as it hits you and your arm tires from the stress. Then it makes more sense.

I would be willing to give this a try in our game. It is the OPERATOR's job to mitigate recoil, so even if the user has gyromounts and other attachments that aid with reducing recoil, the weapon itself isn't really affected.

[Emil_Barr]

I support the more generous interpretation of the recoil rules, for it lets me kill things easier.

[Psikerlord]

It definitely needs clarification, but I think the intent is that you simply do not fire for a single pass. Otherwise, resetting recoil would be way too easy.

this. plus it is clear u must use an action other than shooting for an entire phase to reset recoil. therefore one simple action not shooting, and another in the same phase shooting, cannot meet the requirement. Aarons interpretstion, if it suggests otherwise is incorrect. clearer wording would be nice though.

Actually, Aaron's interpretation is quite simple:

• an action other than [shooting for an entire Action Phase]
  instead of
• [an action other than shooting] for an entire Action Phase

reading the sent in thecontext of the para, and looking at the example a few pages later, the one action no fire to reset recoil is simply wrong.

[Noble Drake]

I am confused as to why people seem to be having trouble with any of this - there is only one interpretation of the rules in which Single Shot mode is functionally different from Semi-Automatic and choosing not to do a SA-Burst, thus that must be the way the rule is meant to work.

Occam's Razor, and all that - the simple explanation is that SS and SA are meant to have differences, and one sentence suggests they do not if interpreted a certain way, so that one sentence is not worded clearly.

[Xenon]

Then again... Book try to simplify things on several locations (which ironically just make it more complicated to read and understand). Take the running charge modifier for example. Running cause -2 modifier on all your actions (except the sprinting action). Charge an enemy with a melee weapon give you +4 modifier. Instead they "simplify" it and state that a charge attack give you a +2 modifier.

Same thing with SS. If shooting a SS weapon only as a simple action does not cause recoil to carry over and since you can not shoot a SS weapon twice in an action phase or take a complex action to fire a SS weapon they might as well "simplify" things and state that shooting SS does not (never) cause recoil to carry over.

That does not mean that shooting SA in a simple action would or would not cause recoil to carry over. But it does mean that SA can not be worded the same way since you can also fire SA in a complex action (SA Burst) which will cause recoil to carry over no matter how you read the text.



It all boils down to how you interpretate this sentence on p.175 Progressive Recoil
"Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase."

And this can be read in two ways.

Scenario 1)
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character spend an entire action phase on an action (or actions?) that does not involve shooting bullets.

Scenario 2)
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character take an action other than shooting bullets during a full complex action (=shooting bullets for an entire action phase).


In scenario 1)
If you have two IPs per combat turn then you can fire one bullet as slow as once every 1.5 seconds and still build recoil. To reset or to not build more recoil you would need to spend 3 seconds between your shots. With a revolver you could fire one bullet every 1.5 seconds and not build recoil.

If you have one IP per combat turn (which non-wired normal people have) then you could fire one bullet as slow as once every 3 seconds and still build recoil. To reset or to not build more recoil you would need to spend 6 seconds between your shots. With a revolver you could fire one bullet every 3 seconds and not build recoil.


In scenario 2)
If you have two IPs per combat turn then you reset or not build recoil you if you spend 1.5 seconds between shots (same for revolvers). To build recoil you would need to fire once every half second (you can not do that with a revolver).

If you have one IP per combat turn then you reset or not build recoil you if you spend 3 seconds between shots. To build recoil you would need to fire once every second.




Also... All Complex Actions descriptions (where shoot for an entire action phase) state:
p.167 Fire full-Auto Weapon
"Remember the effects of cumulative recoil when using these fire modes"
p.167 Fire Long Burst or Semi-Auto Burst
"Remember the effects of cumulative recoil when using these fire modes."

...while the Simple action description (where you don't shoot for an entire action phase and instead spend time to bring the gun back under control) on p.165 Fire Semi-Auto, Single-Shot, Burst Fire or Full-Auto does not mention anything about cumulative recoil.

Now... That might not automatically mean there is not cumulative recoil for the simple action where you also take another action instead of shooting the entire action phase and have time to bring the gun back under control, but it sure does indicate that there is a difference compared to the complex action where you do shoot for an entire action phase.

[KarmaInferno]

I honestly cannot fathom why recoil compensation would degrade like it does in 5E.

Either you have enough rec-comp or you don't. 5E already restricted combat to one attack per pass. All this stuff about resetting recoil is additional complication without any really good benefit.



-k

[Xenon]

agreed.

would be easier if 5pts of recoil compensation would let you fire up to 5 bullets per action phase without having to worry about recoil at all..... shrug.

[Michael Chandra]

Because now that it is harder to hit people, burst fire is far more valuable. As such, recoil resetting each action phase is imbalancing.

[Crunch]

I honestly cannot fathom why recoil compensation would degrade like it does in 5E.

Either you have enough rec-comp or you don't. 5E already restricted combat to one attack per pass. All this stuff about resetting recoil is additional complication without any really good benefit.



-k

I suppose it's a matter of taste, but I'll take issue with the "without any really good benefit" part of that. One of the goals (and in my playtesting I think it's a succesful attempt) is to make SR5 combat more varied and less repetitive. Cumulative recoil, combined with the limit on attack actions, the change to movement and all the rest is designed to make combat a more varied experience. In SR4 most combat phases were simple "I fire two bursts." SR5 moves more and rewards characters with more options. I think that's a very large benefit.

[JackVII]

In SR4 most combat phases were simple "I fire two bursts." SR5 moves more and rewards characters with more options. I think that's a very large benefit.

Yeah, in 5E it's "I throw a grenade." 

[Crunch]

In SR4 most combat phases were simple "I fire two bursts." SR5 moves more and rewards characters with more options. I think that's a very large benefit.

Yeah, in 5E it's "I throw a grenade." 

Only if your GM is sleeping on the job. The number of reasons that grenades shouldn't be and aren't common has been spelled out in nauseating detail half a hundred times.

[trunglefever]

In SR4 most combat phases were simple "I fire two bursts." SR5 moves more and rewards characters with more options. I think that's a very large benefit.

Yeah, in 5E it's "I throw a grenade." 

Only if your GM is sleeping on the job. The number of reasons that grenades shouldn't be and aren't common has been spelled out in nauseating detail half a hundred times.

Seriously. There are a lot of mitigating factors that have prevented me from using grenades against the runners as of yet. I appreciate the variations of the rules (explosions in enclosed spaces, for example), but man, it is a lot of consideration. My runners will get to experience the craziness of a more competent set of enemies.