[Unahim]

I would be surprised if lights in a specific room were encrypted--I don't think many corps would spend their money that way.

Yet by the rules, a legitimate 3 mark user has to Sleaze to get them on or off.

The text from Spoof Command makes it clear that having a mark doesn't actually make you an authorized user, it just makes it possible to trick the device/host into thinking you're an authorized user.  Without legitimate passcodes, you're faking it no matter how many marks you generate.  If marks were actually truly authenticating, every decker run would be "Hack on the Fly while outside the host x3, done."

You spoof a device’s owner’s identity, making the
device think that your command is a legitimate one from
its owner. You need one mark on the icon you are imitating;
you do not need a mark on the target. The opposing
dice roll is still based on the target, though. This trick
only works on devices and agents, not IC, sprites, hosts,
personas, or any other icons.

Spoof Command makes the device think you are the OWNER of the Device, which is naturally much harder because the Owner is at the unreachable 4 Marks level. We're talking about registered, legitimate users here, not the owner. Only 1 person can be the Owner of a Device, but when talking about a secure facility many people will need to be able to access the commands and input orders to do their job. Your line of reasoning does not hold true. I'm also not talking about just 1 mark (at which point many advanced functions should rightfully be locked from you) I'm talking about having 3.

Rules text:

A Matrix authentication recognition key, or mark if
you’re not a fan of rattling off fancy technological nomenclature,
is how the Matrix keeps track of which
personas have access to which devices, files, hosts,
and other personas.

The encryption you're talking about -is- the Mark, that's how the Matrix keeps track of what you can and cannot do; however, under the current rules, having 3 marks on a Device lets you do... nothing, unless you hack. So how do legitimate users get around?

Understand: I'm not suggesting you should be able to do anything and everything with 3 Marks on a device, but as the rules currently are you can't do anything legitimate with it. The Control Device action, at least, should use Data Processing when you have 3 marks, not Sleaze. That still leaves every other matrix action wide open, and Control Device only deals with devices that interact with the meat (doors, lamps, locks, turrets, etc) so there'd be plenty of stuff to do besides plant 3 marks and be done with it. It's not that easy to get 3 Marks on a decent host anyway.

[Kincaid]

Spoof Command makes the device think you are the OWNER of the Device, which is naturally much harder because the Owner is at the unreachable 4 Marks level. We're talking about registered, legitimate users here, not the owner. Only 1 person can be the Owner of a Device, but when talking about a secure facility many people will need to be able to access the commands and input orders to do their job. Your line of reasoning does not hold true. I'm also not talking about just 1 mark (at which point many advanced functions should rightfully be locked from you) I'm talking about having 3.

Jump Into Rigged Device (the corp owns the device, the security rigger is an authorized user) suggests that I am correct by virtue of the fact that it's an opposed roll.  Under your theory, simply having 3 marks would be sufficient to perform the action without the roll.  Presumably, the authorized rigger doesn't roll vs. Firewall + Willpower (does he use his own Willpower?) in this situation.

To a certain extent, marks exist simply as a game mechanic to make decking work a certain way, but for the sake of verisimilitude, think of it this way: PC generated marks (as opposed to host-generated marks) simply aren't as good.  Maybe this is because they aren't stored in the host's "authorized user" file.  Or whatever.  But there is no scenario in which an authorized spider and a decker have precisely the same ease of function.  An authorized user can Control Device no problem, but for me to attempt to slice a small piece off of the host's WAN, I need to have 3 marks and even then the host isn't going to go along willingly.

Understand: I'm not suggesting you should be able to do anything and everything with 3 Marks on a device, but as the rules currently are you can't do anything legitimate with it.

What Shadowrunner is interested in legitimate activity? 
I think of marks not as what sort of legitimate actions can my decker take, but rather what depths of illegitimacy can he reach?  He'll never be a legitimate user.  He can kind-of-sort-of fake the host out for a little bit, but the nature of decking is that sooner or later, the clock will start ticking.  Maybe he'll send everything into reboot, log out and log back in to reset his OS, but he can't live in the host 24-7, no matter how many marks he has.  Even doing nothing at all with 3 marks, he's going to accrue OS every 15 minutes.

The Control Device action, at least, should use Data Processing when you have 3 marks, not Sleaze. That still leaves every other matrix action wide open, and Control Device only deals with devices that interact with the meat (doors, lamps, locks, turrets, etc) so there'd be plenty of stuff to do besides plant 3 marks and be done with it. It's not that easy to get 3 Marks on a decent host anyway.

I understand the thinking here, but if Control Device didn't generate OS, a decker could get his 3 marks out side the host (fail a roll?  log out and log right back in), enter the host and then perform DP actions that could literally kill the entire staff of the building without any risk of generating more OS.  Presumably a spider shows up at some point, but it still throws the entire thing out of whack and goes against the design philosophy of matrix rolls being like meat rolls (in this case, opposed rolls to control something).

[Unahim]

Spoof Command makes the device think you are the OWNER of the Device, which is naturally much harder because the Owner is at the unreachable 4 Marks level. We're talking about registered, legitimate users here, not the owner. Only 1 person can be the Owner of a Device, but when talking about a secure facility many people will need to be able to access the commands and input orders to do their job. Your line of reasoning does not hold true. I'm also not talking about just 1 mark (at which point many advanced functions should rightfully be locked from you) I'm talking about having 3.

Jump Into Rigged Device (the corp owns the device, the security rigger is an authorized user) suggests that I am correct by virtue of the fact that it's an opposed roll.  Under your theory, simply having 3 marks would be sufficient to perform the action without the roll.  Presumably, the authorized rigger doesn't roll vs. Firewall + Willpower (does he use his own Willpower?) in this situation.

Again, no, this doesn't work as you claim.

If you are the device’s owner, or the device’s owner has given you permission to jump into the device, you don’t need to make a test.

Jump Into Rigged Device has a specific caveat preventing that, but it is the -only- thing that does. For everything else, Marks are what decides if you can or cannot do it.

To a certain extent, marks exist simply as a game mechanic to make decking work a certain way, but for the sake of verisimilitude, think of it this way: PC generated marks (as opposed to host-generated marks) simply aren't as good.  Maybe this is because they aren't stored in the host's "authorized user" file.  Or whatever.  But there is no scenario in which an authorized spider and a decker have precisely the same ease of function.  An authorized user can Control Device no problem, but for me to attempt to slice a small piece off of the host's WAN, I need to have 3 marks and even then the host isn't going to go along willingly.

What if I use social engineering to get 3 Marks on a host? What rules do I use?

I think of marks not as what sort of legitimate actions can my decker take, but rather what depths of illegitimacy can he reach?  He'll never be a legitimate user.  He can kind-of-sort-of fake the host out for a little bit, but the nature of decking is that sooner or later, the clock will start ticking.  Maybe he'll send everything into reboot, log out and log back in to reset his OS, but he can't live in the host 24-7, no matter how many marks he has.  Even doing nothing at all with 3 marks, he's going to accrue OS every 15 minutes.

My Technomancer with Puppeteer can Invite Mark on herself without accrueing any OS, and by all logic she has achieved the same legitimacy as anyone else. The marks aren't "fake", they were put there in the same way the truly legitimate people get them. Invite Mark is how everyone who's not a Decker gets their marks, after all.

The Control Device action, at least, should use Data Processing when you have 3 marks, not Sleaze. That still leaves every other matrix action wide open, and Control Device only deals with devices that interact with the meat (doors, lamps, locks, turrets, etc) so there'd be plenty of stuff to do besides plant 3 marks and be done with it. It's not that easy to get 3 Marks on a decent host anyway.

I understand the thinking here, but if Control Device didn't generate OS, a decker could get his 3 marks out side the host (fail a roll?  log out and log right back in), enter the host and then perform DP actions that could literally kill the entire staff of the building without any risk of generating more OS.  Presumably a spider shows up at some point, but it still throws the entire thing out of whack and goes against the design philosophy of matrix rolls being like meat rolls (in this case, opposed rolls to control something).

If you start controlling stuff in weird ways, the enemy's security personnel/deckers/riggers will pick up on it and start vying for control, leading to a matrix battle-it-out. Where's the problem? Also note that under the current rules, I -can- get 3 marks on a Host and then start using all remote turrets in that facility without making a Sleaze test. It's only the things like opening maglocks that the system would have a problem with :p Also, unless you find a device to connect through, I do not believe you can get marks on a Host from the outside at all. (as per the rules that you can't affect the inside form the outside, and vica versa) Else that one decker guy wouldn't have had to go through a maglock with a physical connection in that example text on page 224, so getting Marks on the host will involve being physically close, and in that case your repeated attempts can and will get noticed and security will probably be prowling the perimeter in the meat. That'll be bad for your Decker.

So no, even with this change the matrix would work fine and there'd be plenty of battles, both in the matrix after you start poltergeisting a facility, and in the meat when they try to find you. It'd just make actual sense, that's all :p

[Kincaid]

Again, no, this doesn't work as you claim.

How?  I'm attempting to illustrate that not all marks are created equal.  There seems to be a difference between the authorized user's 3 marks and the decker's 3 marks here.

What if I use social engineering to get 3 Marks on a host? What rules do I use?

Do you mean kidnapping a corp for his security codes (eqv.)?  In that case, you're in and you can do whatever his login could normally do without needing a roll.  Obviously, it's a GM call to say when you've overstepped things.  Most places will let a single user lock a door, but opening up a MMG might require cross verification.

My Technomancer with Puppeteer can Invite Mark on herself without accrueing any OS, and by all logic she has achieved the same legitimacy as anyone else. The marks aren't "fake", they were put there in the same way the truly legitimate people get them. Invite Mark is how everyone who's not a Decker gets their marks, after all.

Yes, but legitimate marks are associated with people with extensive files in HR, who are logged in from a particular terminal, and who are also on the clock during their session.  Deckers shouldn't be where they are and hosts always know this.  This is why simply sitting around with 3 marks generates OS; you can't completely erase your footprint.  The incongruity between authentic marks and decker-generated marks must logically exist because a decker cannot log into a host and spend 5 hours deleting spam emails.

If you start controlling stuff in weird ways, the enemy's security personnel/deckers/riggers will pick up on it and start vying for control, leading to a matrix battle-it-out. Where's the problem? Also note that under the current rules, I -can- get 3 marks on a Host and then start using all remote turrets in that facility without making a Sleaze test. It's only the things like opening maglocks that the system would have a problem with :p Also, unless you find a device to connect through, I do not believe you can get marks on a Host from the outside at all. (as per the rules that you can't affect the inside form the outside, and vica versa) Else that one decker guy wouldn't have had to go through a maglock with a physical connection in that example text on page 224, so getting Marks on the host will involve being physically close, and in that case your repeated attempts can and will get noticed and security will probably be prowling the perimeter in the meat. That'll be bad for your Decker.

Ideally, yes, but not every building has a dedicated security rigger.  I assumed the guy on page 224 jacked into the maglock to avoid Noise (he seems like he's in a busy commercial area), which is a very good reason to be on-site, but certainly the bank's host exists in the matrix.  It would be hard for customers to do any online banking or for employees to work remotely if this wasn't true.  You can get marks from the other side of the planet if you can fight through the Noise.

Really, this discussion boils down to "do you find a game-balancing mechanic plausible?"  For me, that means thinking about decker marks as something different.  It could be something else for you, or it could end up that there's no explanation that you'll accept and you houserule Control Device.  That's fine too and I imagine in games with that houserule, the extra power a decker has will be balanced somehow by the GM--maybe spiders are simply more common.  It's Shadowrun--attempts to overexplain will often end in frustration.

[Unahim]

I just find it curious that there's no caveat anywhere in the book separating legitimate user's marks from a decker's. The book literally just says "This is how the matrix keeps track of authorisations and permissions." That seems clear cut enough, but the rules just simply don't support it. Outside of 1 specific matrix action (jumping in) the rules don't support your interpretation either, though. The Control Device thing would be a houserule, but pruely by RAW so is considering decker's marks different from legitimate ones.

Also, people doing their banking online would enter the Host. That's an extra step your hacker needs to take, and once he's in there he's susceptible to being noticed by any spiders or Patrol IC around, so yeah he could keep doing it, but every time he risks being spotted and then the facility will be on high alert, whether he relogs or not.

[Kincaid]

I will absolutely grant you that chunks of the book, and the Matrix chapter in particular, could have used some better editing.  My "decker marks v. authentic marks" reading is largely based on inference (notably, p. 231)--certain things don't make sense if they aren't distinguished, even if that is never explicitly spelled out.

[Razhul]

Alright, I think I can help clear this up.

I subscribe to the theory that having Marks grants you appropriate access. That's why you need 1 mark to edit a file or attempt to crack it. A normal wageslave user would have that 1 mark.

1) Control Device only works on Devices and a host is not a Device. Thus:
1.1) You can't control guns through the host / system. You need to have Marks on the guns themselves and then they will accept appropriate level commands, depending on how many Marks you have. Just like a normal user with properly granted Marks could.

2) The rule to use Elec. Warfare vs. Int + FW for when no test is available (p.238) works if you understand point 1 above. You are not (as you would have in SR4) telling the Lock/Door/Ventilation system to do something based on your privileges on the host. Instead, you control the Device itself. The Maglock/Keypad/Cardreader itself is built to work a specific way (use card, punch in number etc.) and you are trying to bypass that. In order to have at least some gameplay happen, you roll to see if you make it or not, despite potentially having 3 Marks on it. If you want to rationalize why that is, maybe it's because the command is not coming from the right source. You could have (if you're good enough) also just gotten 1 Mark on the host controlling the devices and then spoofed the command. That would then also have been a roll.

Either way, I don't think there needs to be a new level of "Decker Marks" that are weaker than normal Marks.

[Kincaid]

Why does a decker with 3 marks who goes afk in a host still accumulate OS?  Presumably an authenticated user with 3 marks can spend all day in the host.

[Crunch]

Why does a decker with 3 marks who goes afk in a host still accumulate OS?  Presumably an authenticated user with 3 marks can spend all day in the host.

But a real user doesn't CARE about overwatch score. The GOD will show up, see that they're authenticated and move along. Think of it as a periodic check in or a random traffic stop.

[Razhul]

Marks have no bearing on Overwatch Score. The fact that you did something illegal is what matters. The Matrix is built to defend itself and expose illegal activity. As such, the ticket starts running the moment you do something illegal.

Reminds me of the Matrix movies where, as long as they were logged in, the Agents would send real-world machines after them. You could only run around and cause mayhem versus the Matrix for so long before the gig was up.

[Kincaid]

Why does a decker with 3 marks who goes afk in a host still accumulate OS?  Presumably an authenticated user with 3 marks can spend all day in the host.

But a real user doesn't CARE about overwatch score. The GOD will show up, see that they're authenticated and move along. Think of it as a periodic check in or a random traffic stop.

But it isn't a random traffic stop.  If it worked the way you just described it, every single Matix user would face convergence multiple times a day.  GOD is powerful, but it certainly isn't that powerful.  The OS clock start ticking once you perform either an Attack or Sleaze action.  You likely need to do one of those to get into the host in the first place.  Normal users cannot perform Attack or Sleaze actions, so there's no reason for OS to generate, so GOD would never think they somehow have a false positive.  Convergence never ends with GOD apologizing for the interruption.

Another example: Joe Wageslave is in middle management (2 mark access) and is working on a work-related file on his terminal.  He makes some changes to the Johnson account and hits save.  This is an Edit File matrix action.  Does he now need to roll Computer + Logic v. Firewall + Intuition?  Of course not.  But a decker making the exact same modifications to the Johnson account does have to make that roll, even with 2 marks.  Why would this be the case if all marks are equal?

[Reaver]

The way I see it is, every time the decker attempts to do something, he has to prove to. The device he has the authority to do so... Since his marks aren't exactly 'real', he needs to roll.

If the security rigger, who is the legitimate user at 3 marks tells a camera to follow someone, the system goes "who are you?.... Oh Walter Whosit. You can do that."

When a decker tries the same thing, the camera again asks "who are you?" and the decker has to "prove" he can do so... Otherwise the camera goes "um, you seem to have clearance... But I can't find you in the log....begin system check"

[ZeConster]

I thought the Overwatch score rising over time was because you leave tiny little matrix scars when you do illegal actions, and over time, the GOD algorithms that analyze them get more info? Something like a cloud-computing version of hunters tracking prey, or one of those things from Numb3rs.

[Kincaid]

I thought the Overwatch score rising over time was because you leave tiny little matrix scars when you do illegal actions, and over time, the GOD algorithms that analyze them get more info? Something like a cloud-computing version of hunters tracking prey, or one of those things from Numb3rs.

Essentially, yeah.  But once you perform an illegal action (Attack/Sleaze)--even if it's only once--it starts ticking and there's nothing you can do to stop it.  Without stealing passcodes, it's essentially impossible to enter a host without performing an illegal action, so deckers always risk being discovered.  You can browse the matrix all day, but once you start placing illegal marks, something somewhere starts looking for you.

[Unahim]

The way I see it is, every time the decker attempts to do something, he has to prove to. The device he has the authority to do so... Since his marks aren't exactly 'real', he needs to roll.

If the security rigger, who is the legitimate user at 3 marks tells a camera to follow someone, the system goes "who are you?.... Oh Walter Whosit. You can do that."

When a decker tries the same thing, the camera again asks "who are you?" and the decker has to "prove" he can do so... Otherwise the camera goes "um, you seem to have clearance... But I can't find you in the log....begin system check"

If the Host/Devices had that kind of potential, why wouldn't they constantly be searching for Marks that didn't have log files to go with them, and deleting them/raising the alarm? Why doesn't the entire system go "You've got a Mark? Who are you? Can't find you in the log..." all day long, constantly? It would barely take up any computing power.