[Kincaid]

If the Host/Devices had that kind of potential, why wouldn't they constantly be searching for Marks that didn't have log files to go with them, and deleting them/raising the alarm? Why doesn't the entire system go "You've got a Mark? Who are you? Can't find you in the log..." all day long, constantly? It would barely take up any computing power.

Given the thousands upon thousands of devices in a typical host's WAN, having it constantly search for and scrub unauthorized marks would be really inefficient.  It's far easier to simply have a handshake protocol when a device is actually used, since only  tiny fraction of devices are going to be in-use at any given moment.  Patrol IC serves as a "dumb" first line of defense.

[ZeConster]

Also, isn't there actually a simple way to avoid the over-time increase: have a technomancer with you that uses Static Veil on you? In the event that they perform any illegal actions themselves, they can just Static Veil themselves, too.

[Unahim]

If the Host/Devices had that kind of potential, why wouldn't they constantly be searching for Marks that didn't have log files to go with them, and deleting them/raising the alarm? Why doesn't the entire system go "You've got a Mark? Who are you? Can't find you in the log..." all day long, constantly? It would barely take up any computing power.

Given the thousands upon thousands of devices in a typical host's WAN, having it constantly search for and scrub unauthorized marks would be really inefficient.  It's far easier to simply have a handshake protocol when a device is actually used, since only  tiny fraction of devices are going to be in-use at any given moment.  Patrol IC serves as a "dumb" first line of defense.

Really, we could do this sort of thing with programs that exist today, in organizations that have no less employees/devices. It's as simple as having a program that returns an error whenever there's a Mark without an authorization code connected to it. I think the Matrix in general should be more about hacking for access accounts and then using those accounts to do stuff, rather than hacking for every little action, because it just gets really confusing, as this thread illustrates.

Even the people on the same "side" (don't want to make this more of a versus thing than it is :p) aren't exactly on the same line. It's hard to put forth a conclusive ruling like that.

[Crunch]

I'm not sure how simple it is - given fading etc- but decker/Technomancer teams seem to have a lot of synergy in this system.

slipped.

re:unahim. You can't really say "oh we do this today" because nothing in our current computing model accounts for a global wireless full sensory VR system with DNI interfaces. We literally have no idea what the "back end" of the matrix looks like.

[Kincaid]

Also, isn't there actually a simple way to avoid the over-time increase: have a technomancer with you that uses Static Veil on you? In the event that they perform any illegal actions themselves, they can just Static Veil themselves, too.

Technomancers solve all sorts of Matrix-related problems 

A side note, Static Veil just works against the long-term accrual of OS (so unlike deckers, they can, in fact, hang out in a host all day), performing illegal actions still gives you OS as normal.

[Unahim]

Also, isn't there actually a simple way to avoid the over-time increase: have a technomancer with you that uses Static Veil on you? In the event that they perform any illegal actions themselves, they can just Static Veil themselves, too.

Technomancers solve all sorts of Matrix-related problems 

A side note, Static Veil just works against the long-term accrual of OS (so unlike deckers, they can, in fact, hang out in a host all day), performing illegal actions still gives you OS as normal.

Every decker should get themselves a pocket technomancer ^^ Hell, Complex Forms don't require proximity to sustain, so there could be a Technomancer somewhere handing out Static Veil's to Deckers at a comfortable price all day. Could probably sustain 3-4 (with 1 running on focused concentration) before it gets too hard. More if a Sprite helps out with the Threading.

[Crunch]

Also, isn't there actually a simple way to avoid the over-time increase: have a technomancer with you that uses Static Veil on you? In the event that they perform any illegal actions themselves, they can just Static Veil themselves, too.

Technomancers solve all sorts of Matrix-related problems 

A side note, Static Veil just works against the long-term accrual of OS (so unlike deckers, they can, in fact, hang out in a host all day), performing illegal actions still gives you OS as normal.

illegal MATRIX actions. Resonance actions don't generate OS whether they're legal or not.

[ZeConster]

A side note, Static Veil just works against the long-term accrual of OS (so unlike deckers, they can, in fact, hang out in a host all day), performing illegal actions still gives you OS as normal.

As Apple would say: "There's a Complex Form for that". Cleaner at level 1 lowers your OS by 1, takes a Combat Turn of sustaining it to take effect, with 11 Fading Resist Dice gives about 0.0868 Drain on average, and with Computers 3, Resonance 6, and a -2 from sustaining Static Veil, has a 97.4% chance of succeeding.

[SoulGambit]

I feel like Edit File, Control Device, and Send Message can take care of most of your basic needs. None of those are necessarily Sleaze actions and can be done without issue. Edit File is disgusting, by the way. You want to hack a turret? You can either put 3 marks on it to control it directly, or you can invert its Friend/Foe indicator via Edit File using only a single mark. Or just blind the turret's camera by adding static to the sensors. If  you want to hack a door? You could control device, or you could Edit the files where the password is stored, or just send the message to the door to open.

[Kincaid]

I feel like Edit File, Control Device, and Send Message can take care of most of your basic needs. None of those are necessarily Sleaze actions and can be done without issue. Edit File is disgusting, by the way. You want to hack a turret? You can either put 3 marks on it to control it directly, or you can invert its Friend/Foe indicator via Edit File using only a single mark. Or just blind the turret's camera by adding static to the sensors. If  you want to hack a door? You could control device, or you could Edit the files where the password is stored, or just send the message to the door to open.

Thinking like this is why I love deckers.  Doors (or at least important ones) are probably encrypted, so I'd ask for a Crack File roll of you didn't have the marks for Control Device, but using Edit File to switch a binary setting (do I shoot guys with a corp ID? [y/n]) can be all sorts of fun.

[Unahim]

Heh, now I want to get karma so I can develop the Hacking skills of my Dronomancer ^^ And if I die I'll just go Decker.

[Lysanderz]

I feel like Edit File, Control Device, and Send Message can take care of most of your basic needs. None of those are necessarily Sleaze actions and can be done without issue. Edit File is disgusting, by the way. You want to hack a turret? You can either put 3 marks on it to control it directly, or you can invert its Friend/Foe indicator via Edit File using only a single mark. Or just blind the turret's camera by adding static to the sensors. If  you want to hack a door? You could control device, or you could Edit the files where the password is stored, or just send the message to the door to open.

Thinking like this is why I love deckers.  Doors (or at least important ones) are probably encrypted, so I'd ask for a Crack File roll of you didn't have the marks for Control Device, but using Edit File to switch a binary setting (do I shoot guys with a corp ID? [y/n]) can be all sorts of fun.

Yeah, totally had a hacker do this with a MAD detector he accidentally walked through before turning it off. Rather than try and gun his way out of it, he stayed cool and AR hacked it with the new orders "Alert on presence of all metal" instead of "Alert on presence of X amount of Metal" basically jacking up it's sensitivity to beep with the zipper in your pants. Suddenly his pat down was not the only one that needed to be done (Over a dozen people had walked through as soon as he had, it didn't take long for the officers to suspect that something was wrong with the machine. But the tampering wasn't found out until much later) and officers gave a lot less of a thorough search before just letting him walk on his merry way.

[Psikerlord]

Spoof Command makes the device think you are the OWNER of the Device, which is naturally much harder because the Owner is at the unreachable 4 Marks level. We're talking about registered, legitimate users here, not the owner. Only 1 person can be the Owner of a Device, but when talking about a secure facility many people will need to be able to access the commands and input orders to do their job. Your line of reasoning does not hold true. I'm also not talking about just 1 mark (at which point many advanced functions should rightfully be locked from you) I'm talking about having 3.

Jump Into Rigged Device (the corp owns the device, the security rigger is an authorized user) suggests that I am correct by virtue of the fact that it's an opposed roll.  Under your theory, simply having 3 marks would be sufficient to perform the action without the roll.  Presumably, the authorized rigger doesn't roll vs. Firewall + Willpower (does he use his own Willpower?) in this situation.

To a certain extent, marks exist simply as a game mechanic to make decking work a certain way, but for the sake of verisimilitude, think of it this way: PC generated marks (as opposed to host-generated marks) simply aren't as good.  Maybe this is because they aren't stored in the host's "authorized user" file.  Or whatever.  But there is no scenario in which an authorized spider and a decker have precisely the same ease of function.  An authorized user can Control Device no problem, but for me to attempt to slice a small piece off of the host's WAN, I need to have 3 marks and even then the host isn't going to go along willingly.

Understand: I'm not suggesting you should be able to do anything and everything with 3 Marks on a device, but as the rules currently are you can't do anything legitimate with it.

What Shadowrunner is interested in legitimate activity? 
I think of marks not as what sort of legitimate actions can my decker take, but rather what depths of illegitimacy can he reach?  He'll never be a legitimate user.  He can kind-of-sort-of fake the host out for a little bit, but the nature of decking is that sooner or later, the clock will start ticking.  Maybe he'll send everything into reboot, log out and log back in to reset his OS, but he can't live in the host 24-7, no matter how many marks he has.  Even doing nothing at all with 3 marks, he's going to accrue OS every 15 minutes.

The Control Device action, at least, should use Data Processing when you have 3 marks, not Sleaze. That still leaves every other matrix action wide open, and Control Device only deals with devices that interact with the meat (doors, lamps, locks, turrets, etc) so there'd be plenty of stuff to do besides plant 3 marks and be done with it. It's not that easy to get 3 Marks on a decent host anyway.

I understand the thinking here, but if Control Device didn't generate OS, a decker could get his 3 marks out side the host (fail a roll?  log out and log right back in), enter the host and then perform DP actions that could literally kill the entire staff of the building without any risk of generating more OS.  Presumably a spider shows up at some point, but it still throws the entire thing out of whack and goes against the design philosophy of matrix rolls being like meat rolls (in this case, opposed rolls to control something).

Agree with Kincaid.

As I understand the current hacking, the hacker never reaches the level a legitmate user does. The legitimate user, with the correct passcodes etc doesnt have to make certain tests, it just works. The hacker is continually faking it, and temporary marks are just an indication of how well he is duping the system at that moment. The hacker is making continual tests to maintain and achieve further effects he desires bec he has to sweat to keep up his techno fakery ruse - the system is continually checking/trying to catch him out. All the time his OS score is rising, and the clock is always against him ....  reminiscent of The Matrix movie (which i love by the way, well number 1 and 2, at least). That's how i understand the basic hacking concept to work. You are never legit, you are constantly faking/tricking the system, the system is constantly trying to catch you out, and you are always time limited (Technos seem to have certain exceptions to OS).

[Ricochet]

As far as marks making you legit, here is the description of Patrol IC from p.251.

Patrol IC acts more like an agent than other intrusion countermeasures. Its job is to patrol a host, scanning people’s marks and looking for illegal activity using the Matrix Perception action on all targets in the host. While the act of placing a mark is an illegal activity, the act of simply having a mark is not. Once you have the mark, you are considered a legitimate user. Patrol IC has no attack, but it shares its information with its parent host. Since the Patrol IC doesn’t use Attack actions, it doesn’t take Matrix damage when it fails. Most hosts have Patrol IC and keep it running all the time.

[Typtrich]

Spoof Command makes the device think you are the OWNER of the Device, which is naturally much harder because the Owner is at the unreachable 4 Marks level. We're talking about registered, legitimate users here, not the owner. Only 1 person can be the Owner of a Device, but when talking about a secure facility many people will need to be able to access the commands and input orders to do their job. Your line of reasoning does not hold true. I'm also not talking about just 1 mark (at which point many advanced functions should rightfully be locked from you) I'm talking about having 3.

Jump Into Rigged Device (the corp owns the device, the security rigger is an authorized user) suggests that I am correct by virtue of the fact that it's an opposed roll.  Under your theory, simply having 3 marks would be sufficient to perform the action without the roll.  Presumably, the authorized rigger doesn't roll vs. Firewall + Willpower (does he use his own Willpower?) in this situation.

To a certain extent, marks exist simply as a game mechanic to make decking work a certain way, but for the sake of verisimilitude, think of it this way: PC generated marks (as opposed to host-generated marks) simply aren't as good.  Maybe this is because they aren't stored in the host's "authorized user" file.  Or whatever.  But there is no scenario in which an authorized spider and a decker have precisely the same ease of function.  An authorized user can Control Device no problem, but for me to attempt to slice a small piece off of the host's WAN, I need to have 3 marks and even then the host isn't going to go along willingly.

Understand: I'm not suggesting you should be able to do anything and everything with 3 Marks on a device, but as the rules currently are you can't do anything legitimate with it.

What Shadowrunner is interested in legitimate activity? 
I think of marks not as what sort of legitimate actions can my decker take, but rather what depths of illegitimacy can he reach?  He'll never be a legitimate user.  He can kind-of-sort-of fake the host out for a little bit, but the nature of decking is that sooner or later, the clock will start ticking.  Maybe he'll send everything into reboot, log out and log back in to reset his OS, but he can't live in the host 24-7, no matter how many marks he has.  Even doing nothing at all with 3 marks, he's going to accrue OS every 15 minutes.

The Control Device action, at least, should use Data Processing when you have 3 marks, not Sleaze. That still leaves every other matrix action wide open, and Control Device only deals with devices that interact with the meat (doors, lamps, locks, turrets, etc) so there'd be plenty of stuff to do besides plant 3 marks and be done with it. It's not that easy to get 3 Marks on a decent host anyway.

I understand the thinking here, but if Control Device didn't generate OS, a decker could get his 3 marks out side the host (fail a roll?  log out and log right back in), enter the host and then perform DP actions that could literally kill the entire staff of the building without any risk of generating more OS.  Presumably a spider shows up at some point, but it still throws the entire thing out of whack and goes against the design philosophy of matrix rolls being like meat rolls (in this case, opposed rolls to control something).

Agree with Kincaid.

As I understand the current hacking, the hacker never reaches the level a legitmate user does. The legitimate user, with the correct passcodes etc doesnt have to make certain tests, it just works. The hacker is continually faking it, and temporary marks are just an indication of how well he is duping the system at that moment. The hacker is making continual tests to maintain and achieve further effects he desires bec he has to sweat to keep up his techno fakery ruse - the system is continually checking/trying to catch him out. All the time his OS score is rising, and the clock is always against him ....  reminiscent of The Matrix movie (which i love by the way, well number 1 and 2, at least). That's how i understand the basic hacking concept to work. You are never legit, you are constantly faking/tricking the system, the system is constantly trying to catch you out, and you are always time limited (Technos seem to have certain exceptions to OS).

I just want to point out this entire argument falls apart when dealing with a technomancer that used puppetmaster to force invite mark.

The Technomancer is now a perfectly legal  user with three legitimate marks (as far as the matrix is concerned), why wouldn't the tecnomancer then be able to edit/copy a file with no test?