[IKerensky]

Spirit summoning is easy and common, far more on a gaming table than fluff in fact

So what do you think of simple twist : you can summon a spirit for service, spell assistance and such, complexe action and all. But to require a Spirit to physically materialize or fight for you, you have to bind him first.

Crazy ? Too harsh ?

[ZeConster]

Spell assistance already requires binding: currently the only 3 uses for unbound spirits are combat, using a specific power on 1 or more specific targets, and materializing to do a physical task. Your suggestion would remove two of those, making unbound spirits useless. Also, it would completely screw over my "too polite to bind spirits" character.

[RHat]

Spell assistance already requires binding: currently the only 3 uses for unbound spirits are combat, using a specific power on 1 or more specific targets, and materializing to do a physical task. Your suggestion would remove two of those, making unbound spirits useless. Also, it would completely screw over my "too polite to bind spirits" character.

Canadian shaman?

[Shade]

Spirit summoning is easy and common, far more on a gaming table than fluff in fact

While I think your solution makes the summon skill a total waste of time, I would also suggest that your reasoning behind it is flawed. Spirits are only MENTIONED in the fluff every so often, that doesn't mean they aren't actually there. Especially when dealing with shamans, who converse with spirits as a matter of course. No reason fluff-wise, at all, that a shaman wouldn't call upon the spirits to help in any applicable situation. So long as he repays them in kind.

[ZeConster]

Spell assistance already requires binding: currently the only 3 uses for unbound spirits are combat, using a specific power on 1 or more specific targets, and materializing to do a physical task. Your suggestion would remove two of those, making unbound spirits useless. Also, it would completely screw over my "too polite to bind spirits" character.

Canadian shaman?

Indeed. Athabaskan Council Mounted Police. He first came to Chicago on the trail of his father's killers, and for reasons that don't need further exploring at this juncture, remained, on unpaid suspension. Sadly, no Mentor Spirit (Wolf), and since I went with a specialization in Illusion rather than Combat, and need to get that first, it's going to be a few runs before I can get it.

[RHat]

Spell assistance already requires binding: currently the only 3 uses for unbound spirits are combat, using a specific power on 1 or more specific targets, and materializing to do a physical task. Your suggestion would remove two of those, making unbound spirits useless. Also, it would completely screw over my "too polite to bind spirits" character.

Canadian shaman?

Indeed. Athabaskan Council Mounted Police. He first came to Chicago on the trail of his father's killers, and for reasons that don't need further exploring at this juncture, remained, on unpaid suspension. Sadly, no Mentor Spirit (Wolf), and since I went with a specialization in Illusion rather than Combat, and need to get that first, it's going to be a few runs before I can get it.

And this just reminds me of how amused I would be to see the RCMP get brought into Shadowrun.

[Unahim]

Spell assistance already requires binding: currently the only 3 uses for unbound spirits are combat, using a specific power on 1 or more specific targets, and materializing to do a physical task. Your suggestion would remove two of those, making unbound spirits useless. Also, it would completely screw over my "too polite to bind spirits" character.

Actually, to cast a power on something in the meat it needs to manifest, too, but it will do that for free if the use of the power requires it, no extra service. (just like in combat)

[ZeConster]

Spell assistance already requires binding: currently the only 3 uses for unbound spirits are combat, using a specific power on 1 or more specific targets, and materializing to do a physical task. Your suggestion would remove two of those, making unbound spirits useless. Also, it would completely screw over my "too polite to bind spirits" character.

Actually, to cast a power on something in the meat it needs to manifest, too, but it will do that for free if the use of the power requires it, no extra service. (just like in combat)

So... the suggestion would remove all of the three uses for unbound spirits?

[IKerensky]

Then remove the binding for spell assistance..

... Or force the binding in every case. Sound logical to me... Summoning a Spirit is fast but then you have to negociate and bind him to do your willingness.

In fluff, especially novels, spontaneous summoning of a random and powerfull spirit seems rare. Mage seems to rely on the same spirit more often, so my idea they are actually bound spirits.

[RHat]

Or when you summon a Force 6 Fire spirit, it might be the same one as the last time you did that.

[IKerensky]

Smoother idea :
  - Unbound spirits will provide services that dont require more than a complexe action ( use a power, help cast one spell, deliver one message).
  - For longuer action the Spirit have to be bound (sustaining a spell, helping for a whole combat, killing someone)
  - Watcher Spirits doesn't require binding as thus are more usefull for long and easy tasks.

[ZeConster]

Then remove the binding for spell assistance..

... Or force the binding in every case. Sound logical to me... Summoning a Spirit is fast but then you have to negociate and bind him to do your willingness.

So it seems logical to you that you'd have to spend [Force] hours of binding (which spirits don't like) to get a spirit to do anything for you?

Smoother idea :
  - Unbound spirits will provide services that dont require more than a complexe action ( use a power, help cast one spell, deliver one message).
  - For longuer action the Spirit have to be bound (sustaining a spell, helping for a whole combat, killing someone)
  - Watcher Spirits doesn't require binding as thus are more usefull for long and easy tasks.

I strongly disagree with any suggestion that makes it impossible to summon a spirit on the fly to help during combat.

[Unahim]

So... the suggestion would remove all of the three uses for unbound spirits?

Uh... yes! But you could still make it do... astral combat?

[Michael Chandra]

So to summarize, the suggestion is basically to completely remove Summoning from the game, meaning a magician has to spend thousands and piss off Spirits to even be able to get normal services that require them spending a skill, thus encouraging summoners to go extinct and focus purely on spellcasting, and all this because some people make a big drama about spirits rather than simply letting the GM involve fair consequences?

[Unahim]

Something along those lines, it does seem a bit harsh to need 2 skills (both of them with their dangers in executing) in order to use 1 part of the tri-fecta of mage abilities.