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[SR5] Semi-Automatic Weapons and Recoil

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Mauricio MdS

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« on: <08-22-13/1116:34> »
Is it just me or the Recoil rules don't seem to go well with the Semi-Automatic Weapons?

With a SA weapon you can shoot 1 bullet, or a three bullets burst. If you shoot 1 bullet every initiative phase, you will never suffer from recoil. However, if in your first iniative phase you shoot a burst and in the other phases you shoot a single bullet, then you will suffer from recoil AND the penalties will get progressively worst.

It doesn't seem right to me...

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1 on: <08-22-13/1118:41> »
Right now there's trouble with the recoil rules on how to interpretate them, whether it is spending a single Simple/Complex Action or a single Action Phase not firing that resets recoil. I assume that, given how SS weapons explicitly don't do recoil, it is very likely that you have to not fire for an entire Action Phase to reset recoil, but we need to await official clarification.
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Mauricio MdS

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« Reply #2 on: <08-22-13/1138:21> »
Actually, the recoil rules says specifically that you must stop shooting for an action phase:

Quote from: pg175
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase.

What is odd is that if you spend 20 IP shooting 1 bullet in each IP you won't suffer from recoil. But if you spend 1 IP shooting 1 burst and 19 IP shooting 19 bullets your recoil will reach unbearable levels.

Xenon

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« Reply #3 on: <08-22-13/1139:20> »
what Michael Chandra said



as for op

You get 1 point of free recoil compensation plus strength / 2 points of recoil compensation. Weapons might or might not have additional recoil compensated such as gas vent systems or folding stocks. This recoil compensation does not reset until the progressive recoil reset (you dont automatically "refresh" recoil compensation at each action phase or even at each combat turn)



progressive recoil either work this way:

You fire 1 bullet per action phase and recoil will carry over with 1 point per action phase until you spend an entire action phase (complex action or two simple actions) not shooting anything at all. This mean that if you have a Colt Cobra TZ-120 SMG (with a clip size of 32 and 3 points of recoil compensation due to folding stock and gas vent system) and fire 1 bullet each action phase then you will build up 1 point of progressive recoil per action phase. After 10 action phases you will have a progressive recoil of 10 minus recoil compensation (of maybe 6 points). After 20 action phases you will have a progressive recoil of 20 minus recoil compensation for about -14 dice. Semi-automatic burst work the same way, but quicker since you fire 3 bullets per action phase. After 3 action phases you fired 9 bullets (-3 dice) and after 7 action phases you have fired 21 bullets (-15 dice). once you stop shooting for a full complex or two simple actions progressive recoil will reset to zero and recoil compensation will refresh.



Or it work like this:

If you fire bullets in a simple action recoil reset to the next action phase (sine you did not spend an entire action phase doing nothing but shooting bullets, you only spend half an action phase shooting). So if you fire 1 bullet in one action phase it will reset to the next action phase. If you fire the SMG with a 3 bullet burst fire it will all be compensated by the 6 recoil compensation you have and start fresh the next action phase. With that much recoil compensation you can fire 6 bullet full auto as a simple action every action and not even feel the recoil. If you don't use the folding stock you would suffer -1 dice when shooting a 6 bullet FA. However, if you spend the whole action phase doing nothing but shooting bullets (spending a complex action shooting bullets) then recoil will not have time to reset between action phases. If you fire a semi-automatic burst it will cause 3 recoil and the next action phase it will add 3 more recoil. After 3 action phases you fired 9 bullets (-3 dice) and after 7 action phases you have fired 21 bullets (-15 dice). once you stop shooting for a full complex action progressive recoil will reset to zero and recoil compensation will refresh, so if you only shoot a single semi automatic shot (or a 3bullet burst in BF mode or a 6 bullet burst in FA mode - all simple actions) in action phase 8 you will have no recoil in action phase 9 since you didnt spend the entire action phase shooting bullets.
« Last Edit: <08-22-13/1144:06> by Xenon »

Crunch

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« Reply #4 on: <08-22-13/1142:12> »
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12147.0

That's the whole thread on the recoil issue that sprung up yesterday.

Mauricio MdS

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« Reply #5 on: <08-22-13/1152:21> »
I guess I was doing recoil wrong. I thought that you just started counting bullets for recoil when you shot more than 1 bullet in a single IP and when you started counting bullets, you would continue to count regardless if it is 1 or more bullets.
However, I read the rules again and it doesn't say that I should start counting bullets only after a burst.

The examples did not help me. All the cases are presented with action phases where several bullets are fired. There is no example of one gun firing one bullet per IP nonstop.
« Last Edit: <08-22-13/1156:30> by Mauricio MdS »

Crunch

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« Reply #6 on: <08-22-13/1156:24> »
The point is that there is some confusion.

Obviously in my opinion you're correct, but Aaron who is a freelancer and involved with the rules, argues that the rules say something that, grammatically, they can't be made to say. (Either the rule must be that resetting recoil requires not shooting for an entire pass OR the rule could say that only complex actions carry over recoil and any simple action resets it. Aaron's reading (that it matters what order simple actions are taken in to determine cumulative recoil) would require the rule to be rewritten, as it can't be made to say that by the rules of English.)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: <08-22-13/1157:25> »
Only SS are exempted when not combined with another weapon dualwielding.

There are some debates on whether recoil resets by a Simple Action or a full Action Phase not spent on firing a gun. Personally I suspect the full Action Phase is what's intended, but we're awaiting official clarification.
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Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: <08-23-13/0248:00> »
I guess I was doing recoil wrong. I thought that you just started counting bullets for recoil when you shot more than 1 bullet in a single IP and when you started counting bullets, you would continue to count regardless if it is 1 or more bullets.
However, I read the rules again and it doesn't say that I should start counting bullets only after a burst.

The examples did not help me. All the cases are presented with action phases where several bullets are fired. There is no example of one gun firing one bullet per IP nonstop.
If progressive recoil only reset if you don't fire in an entire action phase then you will build progressive recoil if you fire in semi-automatic mode (even if you only fire SA which is a simple action), burst fire mode (even if you only fire BF which is a simple action) or FA mode (even if you only fire 6 bullet FA which is a simple action). Exception to this being SS (can only be fired in a simple action) which have an explicit rule that state that it does not generate progressive recoil at all (unless if you dual wield)

For example if you only tap the trigger once every action phase while your weapon is in SA mode then you will build up 1 progressive recoil per action phase and eventually you will be forced to spend a full action phase not shooting to reset the recoil. shooting the last bullet, ejecting the magazine as a free action and slotting a new magazine all in the same action phase will not reset recoil.

But if you only tap the trigger once every action phase with a SS weapon then you will not build up 1 progressive recoil per action phase and you will never have to spend an entire action phase not shooting any bullets to reset recoil. I think most (if not all) SS weapons use internal magazine, cylinder or speed loader - all which take a complex action to reload. And the magazine size of SS weapons tend to be small-ish, so you can't really use them to fire forever without taking a break either (WTB a SS weapon that use a clip magazine).



If progressive recoil reset as soon as you take a simple action to stabilize your weapon (as other mentioned there is some debate around what is written, what is intended and what might even be wrong) then you would not build any progressive recoil if you fire in semi-automatic mode (if you only use SA which is a simple action), burst fire mode (if you only use BF which is a simple action) or FA mode (if you only use 6 bullet FA which is a simple action). SS can only be fired in a simple action so it will never generate progressive recoil (the other modes always generate progressive recoil if used to fire SA Burst, Long BF or 10 bullet FA). Note that you might still suffer a few negative dice of recoil effects in the action phase you fire when you do a single 3-bullet burst in BF mode or 6 bullet FA (if you don't have enough total recoil compensation to deal with it).

For example if you only tap the trigger once every action phase while your weapon is in SA mode then you will build up 1 recoil but since you spend the other simple action not shooting the recoil will be reset in time for the next action phase and will not carry over as progressive recoil.

Same if you tap the trigger once every action phase with a SS weapon. In this scenario SS weapons will behave in the exact same manner as a SA weapon that only fire once every action phase (when it comes to recoil).

A Strength 3 character that fire a weapon (without build-in recoil compensation) in a 6 bullet FA will suffer -4 dice in the action phase he fire the weapon due to recoil, but there will be no progressive recoil that carry over until the next action phase unless he go wild and fire 10 bullet FA (or a Long Burst in BF-mode or a SA-burst in SA-mode) without letting the weapon stabilize before next action phase (in that case he would get -7 dice and it would also carry over as progressive recoil to the next action phase (or -4 dice in the case of the Long Burst or -1 dice for SA Burst)).
« Last Edit: <08-23-13/0254:31> by Xenon »

Rythymhack

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« Reply #9 on: <08-23-13/0305:29> »
I think people are way over thinking this. Bull (I think it was) said awhile ago that the reason SS weapons dont generate recoil is because they decided to make it a perk of using a ss weapon. Nothing more. Using them to help determine recoil rules that they are not subject to is not only silly, it's kinda pointless.

Xenon

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« Reply #10 on: <08-23-13/0425:34> »
in this case the guy we normally seem to turn to when we want clarification on how to read the rules is the same guy that indicate that recoil reset if you only spend part of your action phase shooting bullets. Personally, both game mechanics work fine for me.

If I were to only give examples from one interpretation it would probably be his (as his word seem to carry a lot of weight around this forum and he got access to a lot more behind the scenes information and knowledge about the intention behind rules and examples that are ambiguous or even flat out wrong).

...but since he is not an official representative of Catalyst (and I am not 100% sold on his interpretation) I find it better to give examples from both scenarios until we get an official Catalyst errata or official Catalyst clarification.

Rythymhack

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« Reply #11 on: <08-23-13/0437:33> »
Fair enough.

D Prime

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« Reply #12 on: <08-23-13/0802:51> »
Personally, I house-ruled it so that your recoil automatically drops by 1 each action phase (and it still goes away completely if you don't shoot for an entire action phase). That way, you can fire a single bullet per action phase without accumulating recoil penalties.

Xenon

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« Reply #13 on: <08-23-13/0811:35> »
Personally, I house-ruled it so that your recoil automatically drops by 1 each action phase (and it still goes away completely if you don't shoot for an entire action phase). That way, you can fire a single bullet per action phase without accumulating recoil penalties.
Or that your recoil compensation reset every action phase (or at least every combat turn).

actually pretty strange that if a troll with strength 10 use both hands to fire a Fichetti Security 600 Light Pistol with gas vent III, wireless smartgun and detachable shoulder stock while mounted in a gyro mount and only fire once every action phase he will, before he even need to reload his pistol, still get a recoil so high he have no chance to hit a stationary man-sized target within 5m that doesn't even tries to avoid being shot.

Just sayin'
« Last Edit: <08-23-13/0819:13> by Xenon »

ZeConster

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« Reply #14 on: <08-23-13/0841:16> »
That's why the alternative interpretation (spending a Simple Action or Complex Action on something that isn't firing a weapon resets recoil) makes a lot more sense than the way people (including me) have been reading that rule.