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Governments in 2070's

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grid_roamer

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« Reply #90 on: <09-06-13/0744:50> »
Being considered Svoereign has little to do with having anything but a group of people wishing some form of basic rights for themselves .All they have to do is ask. Then the community they live in is now sovereign.
The entity they exist within then can allow them to apply for 'state' status based on intent for the host nation. but the former is all that is needed to have a treaty or at least an agreement to have a treaty.

Corps wishing higher status, devised a plan  making them an entity above all nations. First by devising their own laws (coporate court) giving themselves an international jurisdiction over members.

Taking over printing of money, establishing coporate zones, wtih private schools, police stations, etc, .... never having to ask for sovereign status since the operated within nations as a corporation already.

Then applied for extraterrtorial status never having to apply to any individual nation for statehood or state for sovereign status. since they had their own territory(enclaves, zones, etc..) and constitutional law (corporate court).

All based on their plan for higher profit margins....

Sengir

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« Reply #91 on: <09-06-13/1820:22> »
Multinational corporations can, even nowadays, also engage in commercial contracts with sovereign states that don't qualify as international treaties.
Sure, because these corporations lack any other attribute of a state.

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To me, the ability that states retain to alter which area qualify for corporate extraterritoriality (and effectively do so in several occasions) precludes those from being considered as corporate sovereign territory.
The UCAS strongarmed their way into the Arcology and Raku was nice enough to let them take care of the disaster area, while secretly working to get their hands on all the stuff that really mattered (like Deus). Sounds like a piece of international politics. And revoking recognition? We've been over the ROC already, haven't we?

Nath

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« Reply #92 on: <09-06-13/1912:13> »
You should also give an explanation for that one:
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Shadows of North America, page 91
> Last year the PCC made new by revoking Aztechnology's operating licenses for all of their Pueblo facilities and canceling policies for Aztechnology facilities and subsidiaries within Pueblo only months after Aztlan had been booted out of Denver. The Azzies had been on "show cause" probation for about eight or nine years already. The Azzies were told to vamoose in six months, but they've been dragging their feet in packing up.
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Sengir

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« Reply #93 on: <09-07-13/0947:50> »
The answer maybe one page up from what you quoted: All the does is hand out temporary licenses to do business there uninterrupted. Yes, the authors subsumed this under "extraterritoriality", just like they did with embassies...

Nath

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« Reply #94 on: <09-07-13/1008:41> »
You mean this part that describes what the operating license does?
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Shadows of North America, page 90
The main restriction is that all extraterritorial corporations must have an operating license to function on Pueblo lands; in effect, they're paying Pueblo for the privilege of extraterritoriality.

Sure, sometimes Shadowrun authors are wrong. They can also sometimes not write what they actually meant.

It's quite convenient that all canon sources that would show megacorporations are not sovereign happens to be wrong or misunderstood, while all the sources that... no, wait, what sources did you gave to back up your claim?

Sengir

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« Reply #95 on: <09-07-13/1039:19> »
It's quite convenient that all canon sources that would show megacorporations are not sovereign
...are at best anecdotal, whereas the the evidence for megacorps having all the attributes and titles of souvereign states are not along the lines of "well there was this one obscure case where a guy was actually considered a citizen of the company he worked for...".

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #96 on: <09-08-13/0116:43> »
... so ... if I understand you correctly, Sengir, you claim that the RL authors got extraterritoriality wrong for embassies (the permissions and allowances for which are generally considered to be the definition of what it means to be extraterritorial) but got it right for corporate properties ... ??

... how's that work, again?

and that the extraterritorial embassy just up the street isn't precisely the same?
Embassies/diplomatic missions are not extraterritorial. The "organization" is exempted from local laws, but that does not make it separate territory. Think of it like renting a house: Your landlord probably does not have the right to enter it, but that does not make you the owner and your lease can be terminated.

And  I'm at loss where you got the idea that I claimed a nation state does not posses territory, populace, etc..
You implied (strongly) that a nation-state does not &c. when you stated that embassies (please note that I did not state 'diplomatic missions') were not considered extraterritorial - which AFAIK is the singular current global use of the term, though it includes packages proceeding in the hands of an embassy courier to and from the host country, that courier's person, the ambassador, and the ambassador's official vehicle.  Yes, they can all be kicked out, but while they exist they and the land is considered part of the other nation's territory - which is what extraterritorial means, 'out of the (host nation's) territory'.

Your use of the landlord/tenant phrasing, however, is precisely what I mean when I speak of extraterritoriality - and which was precisely what happened with the SCIRE/ACHE when Deus took the damn thing over.  The landlord showed up, said "You're cooking meth in here, that's damn well dangerous to all the other tenants, GTFO!!" and took over the situation - and, technically, the property - while giving Renraku the option to purchase it back for costs.

In short, you got it all precisely correct, but you don't realize it -- and in fact you're arguing that a) national and corporate extraterritoriality in SR are different and b) that those who claim otherwise are wrong.

So ... slap yourself a bit and realize that extraterritoriality means just exactly what you say it does and what I'm saying it does, and that it really is nations that get to decide whether or not and to what extent they're going to be signatories to the Universal Business Accords, eh?
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grid_roamer

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« Reply #97 on: <09-08-13/0646:38> »
... so ... if I understand you correctly, Sengir, you claim that the RL authors got extraterritoriality wrong for embassies (the permissions and allowances for which are generally considered to be the definition of what it means to be extraterritorial) but got it right for corporate properties ... ??

... how's that work, again?

and that the extraterritorial embassy just up the street isn't precisely the same?
Embassies/diplomatic missions are not extraterritorial. The "organization" is exempted from local laws, but that does not make it separate territory. Think of it like renting a house: Your landlord probably does not have the right to enter it, but that does not make you the owner and your lease can be terminated.

And  I'm at loss where you got the idea that I claimed a nation state does not posses territory, populace, etc..
You implied (strongly) that a nation-state does not &c. when you stated that embassies (please note that I did not state 'diplomatic missions') were not considered extraterritorial - which AFAIK is the singular current global use of the term, though it includes packages proceeding in the hands of an embassy courier to and from the host country, that courier's person, the ambassador, and the ambassador's official vehicle.  Yes, they can all be kicked out, but while they exist they and the land is considered part of the other nation's territory - which is what extraterritorial means, 'out of the (host nation's) territory'.

Your use of the landlord/tenant phrasing, however, is precisely what I mean when I speak of extraterritoriality - and which was precisely what happened with the SCIRE/ACHE when Deus took the damn thing over.  The landlord showed up, said "You're cooking meth in here, that's damn well dangerous to all the other tenants, GTFO!!" and took over the situation - and, technically, the property - while giving Renraku the option to purchase it back for costs.

In short, you got it all precisely correct, but you don't realize it -- and in fact you're arguing that a) national and corporate extraterritoriality in SR are different and b) that those who claim otherwise are wrong.

So ... slap yourself a bit and realize that extraterritoriality means just exactly what you say it does and what I'm saying it does, and that it really is nations that get to decide whether or not and to what extent they're going to be signatories to the Universal Business Accords, eh?

Slap yourself.....  ;D

Well nations are getting more intolerant of the coporate structure and its dominance. So It's natural that steps be made, by a Nation, to balance power against the corps.....
The PCC and Aztlan are good examples....

Silence

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« Reply #98 on: <09-08-13/0823:28> »
The problem with using Aztlan in that example is that Aztechnology is the main reason Aztlan exists.
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grid_roamer

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« Reply #99 on: <09-08-13/0834:57> »
The problem with using Aztlan in that example is that Aztechnology is the main reason Aztlan exists.

Not a problem I think, here is why.....

All nations in Shadowrun owe their current borders, political situations, economic situations to the corporations but....

 Aztechnology took the oppoturnity to form a national identity, corporate structure by taking/assuming a geographical area as their responsibility. Effectively, at first, discouraging all other corps from sharing out Atlan among each other. A reverse nationalization....

hey

did the person who started the topic leave? looks like someone else took ownership....
« Last Edit: <09-08-13/0838:59> by fenris_mask »

Lusis

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« Reply #100 on: <09-08-13/1348:52> »
LOL no, I've been reading every post.  ;)
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RHat

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« Reply #101 on: <09-08-13/1910:13> »
The problem with using Aztlan in that example is that Aztechnology is the main reason Aztlan exists.

Not a problem I think, here is why.....

All nations in Shadowrun owe their current borders, political situations, economic situations to the corporations but....

 Aztechnology took the oppoturnity to form a national identity, corporate structure by taking/assuming a geographical area as their responsibility. Effectively, at first, discouraging all other corps from sharing out Atlan among each other. A reverse nationalization....

hey

did the person who started the topic leave? looks like someone else took ownership....

ALL nations?  Even the ones that had their territory and borders before the CC was a thing?  Even the ones that aren't amenable to the ways and means of the corps?
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grid_roamer

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« Reply #102 on: <09-08-13/1917:02> »
Who's borders has not changed since before the Corporate Court?

Reaver

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« Reply #103 on: <09-08-13/1926:07> »
The problem with using Aztlan in that example is that Aztechnology is the main reason Aztlan exists.

Not a problem I think, here is why.....

All nations in Shadowrun owe their current borders, political situations, economic situations to the corporations but....

 Aztechnology took the oppoturnity to form a national identity, corporate structure by taking/assuming a geographical area as their responsibility. Effectively, at first, discouraging all other corps from sharing out Atlan among each other. A reverse nationalization....

hey

did the person who started the topic leave? looks like someone else took ownership....

Actually. OrO (the corp name before the Aztec revival movement took hold in South America) used its clout with the government to nationalize the business sector of South America.... Basically they "took" all the businesses and told the megacorps "F••k y•u!!! Ours now!!" which sparked the first time (arguably) an Omega Order had ever been issued...

The other Megacorps of the day basically ganged up and dealt OrO/aztechology a huge slap on hand that brought them running to talk.... But what no one can figure out (SR history mystery) is why Aztechnology was allowed to keep everything they took, and that the other megas where only allowed subsidery companies in aztlan/south America......
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Reaver

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« Reply #104 on: <09-08-13/1930:57> »
Who's borders has not changed since before the Corporate Court?

Most countries borders changed well before the CC was even formed....

The VITAS plagues caused A LOT of upheaval.... And what it didn't cause, UGE, goblinization and the awakening did....

The first true show of force by the CC was the arguable Omega Order on ORO/Aztechnology.... And from there their power grew rapidly.
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