[martinchaen]

Wait. The entry for sattelite link does not specify "Noise Reduction", is specifically states:
"This link limits Noise due to distance to –5."

Noise due to Spam/Static zones are Situations, not Distance.

I've modified my question on the Hot Patch errata thread to include relevant questions for this discussion. Until then, I think we've sufficiently exhausted the issue, at least from my view.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12106.msg237793#msg237793

End of line: GM decision, as with most things. Even in SRM, it seems.

[Michael Chandra]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then, Michael,[...]. "Most of the time unless your GM says so"

Yes, that is clearly the only option, and as such the end of this debate. After all, if we cannot agree on what RAW is, then it's impossible to discuss it. And no, the GM call has nothing to do with ambiguous rules. It simply means that the GM decides when there's actual background Noise.

@Xenon: I am going with enough noise fully eliminating all wireless functionality, including communication myself. The rules state wireless functionality, not wireless bonuses. As such all wireless functionality is gone.

The alternative reading, by the way, means there is no reason for a Rigger to ever provide a Drone with Noise Reduction unless they're Jumping In. Nor would smartguns lose their connection with the smartlink, nor can a team communicate with their commlinks anymore. This last part, by the way, is contradicted by Ashes: In there, they only can communicate through infrared and wires because of jamming.

So honestly, I think the impossible consequences of another reading prove it's not supposed to be read like that. There's no way Jammers are worthless against Commlinks, Drone Control and Wireless Grenades.

[martinchaen]

Michael, agreed.

Just to see if I've understood you correctly; your reading of RAW is:
1. That a Wireless bonus "only applies when the device has access to the Matrix"
2. That "if there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality"
3. That "these benefits only apply when the item’s wireless mode is on"

Correct?

Would you agree that my questions in the Hot Patch would be sufficient to address the dispute we're having on when wireless bonuses apply? If not, please feel free to add to them.

[Xenon]

Wait. The entry for sattelite link does not specify "Noise Reduction", is specifically states:
"This link limits Noise due to distance to –5."

Noise due to Spam/Static zones are Situations, not Distance.

Sigh...Are we going to discuss satellite links now...??

Satellite Links It let you connect to the matrix from places where no local wireless networks exists. This is the primary reason why you use a Satellite Link.

Using a Satellite Link IS a Static Zone situation.
Check p.231 Static Zone modifier: "Remote place with satellite access only": Noise Rating 5

If you are in the middle of a desert, the north pole, adrift in the pacific etc. you will not have matrix access at all -unless you bring a satellite link.


In addition Satellite Link have the added benefit to limit Noise due to distance to -5, as per the description of the device at p.439

That mean you get a flat 5 noise rating if you hack through a satellite link no matter how remote you are (even if you are in a middle of the desert; which would normally totally prevent access to the matrix) and you never get more than 5 noise due to distance no matter how far away you are (other side of the world; which would normally give you 8 noise).

@Xenon: I am going with enough noise fully eliminating all wireless functionality, including communication myself. The rules state wireless functionality, not wireless bonuses. As such all wireless functionality is gone.

The alternative reading, by the way, means there is no reason for a Rigger to ever provide a Drone with Noise Reduction unless they're Jumping In. Nor would smartguns lose their connection with the smartlink, nor can a team communicate with their commlinks anymore. This last part, by the way, is contradicted by Ashes: In there, they only can communicate through infrared and wires because of jamming.

So honestly, I think the impossible consequences of another reading prove it's not supposed to be read like that. There's no way Jammers are worthless against Commlinks, Drone Control and Wireless Grenades.

I have a slightly different approach at my table. I don't think snow, heavy rain or background noise etc. should cause augmented reality to fail. That entire mesh networks (the Matrix) will stop routing traffic.

However Jammer on p.441 state that they "floods the airwaves with electromagnetic jamming signals to block out wireless and radio communication."
In my opinion this is the primary reason why you use a Jammer. A secondary reason is that it also provide Noise rating -even if it fail to completely block out wireless and radio communication.

ECM might be something future books introduce, but we already have the Electronic Warfare skill (which you can use for disruption and even have a Jamming specialization) and we already have Jammers. We also have rules that cover ECCM in the rigger chapter (which let you use Electronic Warfare to get better signals and avoid being jammed - the skill even have a Communications specialization).

This is how my ECM house rules look like:

When you use a jammer for the purpose to disrupt wireless and radio communication you make a Electronic Warfare(Jamming) + Logic [Jammer Rating] test or a Electronic Warfare(Jamming) + Logic [Attack] (if you use a cyberdeck as a jamming device) and note number of hits. This will act as a ECM rating for all devices in the AoE. Note that as Jammer Rating is reduced over distance so might your hits as Jammer Rating act as a limit - and with this the current ECM rating.

All noise reduction in the book (wireless data jack, signal scrub, taking a complex action using Electronic Warefare(Communications) + Logic [Data Processing] on a RCC, increasing Noise Reduction at the cost of Sharing on a RCC etc) will provide equal amount of ECCM rating.

ECCM rating is added on top of the device's rating where it run for the purpose of jamming all wireless and radio signals.

If ECM rating is equal or greater than a device's rating (or rather it's current Data Processing rating which is normally equal to it's device rating) + ECCM then you jammed a device's all wireless and radio signals. To block communication between two sources, ECM rating need to be equal or greater than the highest rating.

Or if you turn it around; Target device's rating + it's ECCM act as a threshold on your Electronic Warefare test.


A lot of text; but basically you roll electronic warefare + logic [jammer] and if you get 2 hits you will block all communications from almost all devices, including mental commands to detonate a wireless triggered grenade if the thrower use trodes, but you need 3 hits to block wireless DNI communication from users that have a data jack as the data jack provide 1 point of ECCM.

[Michael Chandra]

In all fairness, I am debating RAW, not houserules. And I am debating your reading because if followed it means jammers would be rather worthless. You'd only suffer a Noise penalty from jamming if jumping in, merely instructing the drones and seeing through their eyes would then not be a problem at all. A car wouldn't actually lose its connection to GridGuide because they don't have it listed as wireless bonus. Communication would still be possible with cheapass commlinks even when blanketed by Rating 10 jammers. Wireless grenades would not be vulnerable to jamming. This would mean Noise is solely an anti-hacker measure and jammers are worthless against other purposes, aside from the small chance you cost your opponent some dice.

So my statement was: Given the severe consequences of reading the elimination of wireless functionality as SOLELY the elimination of wireless bonuses, despite wireless functionality being its own section and the rules not stating bonuses but functionality there, not only does the language used eliminate this alternative reading and make clear it is not RAW, the consequences of following this alternative reading are at a level where it is clear this would never be RAI.

[Xenon]

The whole Wireless bonus chapter use nothing BUT the phrase [additional] [wireless] functionality. Why do you assume that when they talk about [wireless] functionally and noise they suddenly mean the ability to wireless communicate at all....? It simply does not make sense (to me) that they would talk about something else than wireless bonus in the wireless bonus chapter.

I would agree with you if they said it in the noise chapter. Or in the description of jammers. Or a general wireless chapter. Or the description of electronic warfare skill. Or even in the rigger or matrix chapter.

But when they talk about wireless functionality in the wireless bonus chapter they simply mean the additional wireless functionality you get that is listed as a wireless bonus in the description of the device.


When an item has additional functionality when connected to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless” entry in the item’s description. This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix, which is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise, like if you’ve entered a wireless static zone. If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see Noise, p. 230).

[Michael Chandra]

I assume it because that's what the rules have stated wireless functionality entails.The world is wireless. Almost every device you can
think of has been computerized and equipped with a
wireless link, including your microwave, your gun, maybe
even your eyes. Every gear item has a wireless-enabled
computer built in. Even non-electronic items
without any moving parts have built-in computers, so
now your pants can store your favorite music (and tell
you when it’s time to do the laundry). The few devices
that are non-wireless are most likely tagged with RFID
tags (p. 440).

Wireless-enabled items can prevent theft or monitor
the item’s functionality and alert the user of any malfunctions
via their personal area network. For instance, in bone
lacing, sensor tags are a convenient way of monitoring for
stress fractures and other complications. A hacker can’t
hack into your bone lacing and break your bones, but a
hacker can tell your bone lacing that your bones are broken,
causing your bone lacing to tell your commlink to call
DocWagon, or tell your medkit that you need painkillers.

Every item being wireless means that nearly every
item has a device rating. Unless otherwise specified in
an item’s description, the general Device Rating can be
found on the Device Ratings table.

When an item has additional functionality when connected
to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless”
entry in the item’s description. This functionality only
applies when the device has access to the Matrix, which
is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise,
like if you’ve entered a wireless static zone. If
there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater
than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance,
the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see
Noise, p. 230).

These benefits only apply when the item’s wireless
mode is on.So no, I do not think wireless functionality here talks about just wireless bonuses of items that have extra functionality when connected to the matrix. I think it applies to all wireless functionality. This is supported by Wireless Functionality being explained first and Noise killing Wireless Functionality, not Wireless Bonuses. If there was no Wireless Functionality section just before, then maybe you could argue RAW supporting your reading. But with this order of rules, grouped together and phrased like that, wireless functionality and noise clearly involve far, far more than just the wireless bonuses.

The section of the rules you quoted, by the way, means wireless bonuses are wireless functionality. It simply is there to make clear you only lose THAT benefit of the item and not everything else, so you can still use a wired smartgun or a lasersight for Accuracy and you can still use a MedKit. It does not mean wireless functionality is by definition wireless bonuses, especially since they explained wireless functionality as a whole earlier.

[martinchaen]

Xenon Hehe, you don't have to discuss anything if you don't want to; I was just saying it doesn't seem like the RAW for satellite link provides "Noise Reduction" (TM), but simply limits "Noise due to distance" to -5. The problem with that phrasing, as I see it, is that while it would allow you to connect to the matrix through it if the closest other wireless device was up to 100km away (5-5 = 0 noise, noise has to exceed device rating to stop it from functioning, so a Rating 3 device with satellite link theoretically should be able to connect to the matrix from anywhere (noise 8-3-5)), it wouldn't help you in several of the other conditions listed under static/spam zones:

Abandoned Underground Area, Heavy Rain or Snow, for example. Severe Storm. Enclosed Place. Most of the "Spam" zone descriptions do not deal with distance, but "Noise". So the question is, does satellite link provide Noise Reduction -5, or is the current wording that it "limits Noise due to distance to -5".

And I'm with Michael on noise affecting more than just wireless bonuses. Anything that mentions using wireless would seem to be affected if noise rating exceeds device rating (no wireless charging shock gloves if Noise Rating = 3, for instance, or wirelessly detonating grenades, etc etc)

[Xenon]

As they seem to confuse things on purpose I would not be surprised if this is the case here as well. Would not be the first place.


If the sentence about loss of wireless functionality due to noise had been at p.420 (that talk about wireless in general) instead of p.421 (that talk about wireless bonuses in particular) and if they replaced phrase such as "[being] wireless[-enabled]" with "wireless functionality" then it would have been clear what they mean. Example below:

Every item having wireless functionality means that nearly every item has a device rating. Unless otherwise specified in an item’s description, the general Device Rating can be found on the Device Ratings table. If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see Noise, p. 230).


If they had replaced "[additional] [wireless] functionality" with "wireless bonus" in the whole wireless bonus chapter then they would have been clear as well. Example below:

When an item has wireless bonus when connected to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless” entry in the item’s description. This wireless bonus only applies when the device has access to the Matrix, which is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise, like if you’ve entered a wireless static zone. If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless bonus (see Noise, p. 230).



The book using different phrases for the exact same thing (for no apparent reason) is the root cause of pretty much every debate we had so far i think

[Michael Chandra]

So we have 2 readings

One assumes bad placement of that section (just like Augmented Maximum) and that after they explain Wireless Functionality, they actually mean Wireless Functionality when talking about Wireless Functionality in the Wireless Bonus section.

The other assumes that after introducing Wireless Functionality and talking about Wireless Bonuses, they were dumb enough to use not the term they just introduced and is the header of the section, but instead a term they had just defined a section earlier but did not intend to use here.

Leaving aside Occam's Razor and design setup arguments, your reading results in severe gamebalance issues, as I explained, which contradict not just reason and balance but also fluff intel. My reading, on the other hand, results in a game where Noise is indeed wieldable as a weapon. My reading is RAW, barring errata, but given the consequences of your RAI reading I find it impossible that they intended the rules as such.

[Xenon]

@Martin
You don't lose wireless functionality from noise due to distance (we said this several times now).

Satellite Link does not provide noise reduction. It "limit" noise due to distance to 5.
"Limit" to -5 due to distance mean that you will not take -8 due to distance if you are using a satellite link
- even if you are hacking a device that is more than 100km away from your cyberdeck..

If you have a satellite link then you get matrix access even if you are in the middle of a desert, at the north pole or adrift in the middle of the pacific ocean. You will get 5 noise (and -5 dice pool modifier on your matrix actions) due to the satellite link count as "Remote place with satellite access only".

And I'm with Michael on noise affecting more than just wireless bonuses. Anything that mentions using wireless would seem to be affected if noise rating exceeds device rating (no wireless charging shock gloves if Noise Rating = 3, for instance, or wirelessly detonating grenades, etc etc)

Noise (p.230) talk about noise as it slow everything down (not shutting them down completely)
"...It may seem as if traffic in the Matrix is instantaneous, but ask anyone who has played an online game with someone a few continents away—there is a noticeable delay compared to playing someone next door..."
You get negative dice pool modifier because your signal take a few parts of a second longer to reach your destination.

Wireless Bonus talk about functionality and what you need to do to get this functionality (access to matrix, wireless ON) and what will stop it (no access to matrix (like if you are in the middle of a desert) or if noise is higher than device rating). You don't get wireless bonus if you connect with cable because it is too slow compared to wireless. You don't get wireless bonus if you have too much noise because it is too slow compared to not having much noise.

So we have 2 readings...

I used to argue for your point Michael. I based my assumption in this thread on Aaron's post as it seem as if his word have a lot of weight on this forum and he got behind the scenes knowledge and access to the upcoming errata. Something I don't have.

[martinchaen]

Xenon Thanks, that makes sense. I guess my struggle was with noise vs distance. After you pointed out that satellite link only means you won't be at -8 things make much more sense.

I can't wait for the errata :-)

Sorry for being a pain, guys. Some of the rules have been really hard to get to terms with (addiction rules probably took me and a couple others a few hours to suss out), and I just want to make sure I have as complete of an understanding as possible of the core rules for when SRM begins.

[Lynx]

"Can a device that is slaved to a PAN use the Device Rating of it's master to determine Noise modifiers and whether or not Wireless functionality is temporarily lost?"

Yes of course it can, it connects to that and then the matrix. This is exactly how we play it, anything else is silly and any peon with a rating 6  jammer shuts down everything, including military vehicles, what about planes ?

[Xenon]

Yes of course it can...

This is not SR4.
In SR5 individual devices connect to the matrix on their own. They are not wireless-hard-wired to a "server" in the network and from there access the Matrix. Slaving your device to a master device let the slaved device use master attributes when taking defense tests - that's about it.

If there is enough noise between your wireless firearm and your DNI, your PAN and the Matrix as a whole then you can no longer change fire mode as a free action. I am pretty sure having a rating 6 commlink will not change this...
- You can still change fire mode as a simple action.

[Michael Chandra]

any peon with a rating 6  jammer shuts down everything, including military vehicles, what about planes ?

If the plane is at least 120 meters away, even a Rating 10 Directional Jammer will not be able to jam it. Even the slowest military aircraft can go 80m in 1 CT. So really, that won't be a problem.