[martinchaen]

All right, so I've recently had to make a bit of a change to a character I'll be playing, and I chose to take Code of Honor: Assassin's Creed.

Now, since I don't want to kill anyone unless I get paid to do so, I need to re-think my armament choices in terms of ammunition. I had originally been intending to pack APDS for my cyber-SMG, Explosive Rounds and SnS for my Assault Rifle, and APDS for my Sniper Rifle. I'll keep the 20 APDS rounds for the Sniper Rifle and add some SnS just in case I get put on overwatch instead of sniping duty, so this will mostly deal with the following question.

In a vacuum, what is more effective; a Called Shot: Splitting The Damage with APDS or Explosive rounds vs Stick-n-Shock or Gel rounds

Let's examine the stats.
Just using SnS allows the full dice pool to be used and deal -2S(e) with -5AP.
Just using Gel allows the full dice pool to be used and deal -0S with +1AP.
Using APDS and a called shot gives a -4 Dice Pool for an average 1 less modified DV, with the original weapon DV and -4AP.
Using Ex and a called shot gives the same -4 DP for an average 1 less modified DV,  with the weapon DV+1 and -1AP.

Now, assuming that the defender scores no hits on defense test.

[EDIT]
It would seem that using a called shot to split the damage is less efficient than simply going for higher damage values. With this in mind, I've reworked the below to average values (instead of using buying hits), and with a dice pool of 20 in order to reflect optimal potential. I've also added categories for using Called Shot: Vitals, as well as discarded the different weapon types as they all have the potential to modify efficiency equally.

Non-lethal, no called shot:
SnS: 20d6>5 = 5 hits on average = X + 5 - 2 = X+3 DV modified, with -5AP
Gel: 20d6>5 = 5 hits on average = 7 + 5 = X+5 DV modified, with +1 AP

Non-lethal, called shot (Vitals):
SnS: 16d6>5 = 4 hits on average = X + 4 -2 + 2 = X+4 DV modified, with -5AP
Gel: 16d6>5 = 4 hits on average = X + 4 + 2 = X+6 DV modified, with +1 AP

Lethal, no called shot:
APDS: 20d6>5 = 5 hits on average = X + 5 = X+5 DV modified, with -4AP
EX: 20d6>5 = 5 hits on average = X + 5 + 1 = X+6 DV modified, with -1AP

Lethal, called shot (Vitals):
APDS: 16d6>5 = 4 hits on average = X + 4 +2 = X+6 DV modified, with -4AP
EX: 16d6>5 = 4 hits on average = X + 4 + 1 + 2 = X+7 DV modified, with -1AP

Now, the one unknown as I see it is AP. For high armor targets, SnS would be the obvious winner to my mind, as the additional AV reduction can be very beneficial. Similarly, low armor targets would likely be more affected by EX, as it has the highest modified DV with the least AP.

However, one must also consider secondary effects:

SnS effectiveness can be reduced if the mooks wear non-conductive armor but even if they do, electrical damage has powerful secondary effects (reduced initiative means less actions coming your way, and negative dice pool modifiers are always nice).
Gel has the +2 to knockdown effect, which might come in handy if you want to disable your foe. It is also the cheapest by far.
APDS seems designed to kill, pure and simple, and is illegal and the most expensive ammo choice.
EX has potential against low-armor targets, but is also illegal and costs the same as SnS.

Both APDS and EX also has less chance to generate higher number of hits (-4 dice since called shot "Splitting the damage" needs to be used to be less-than-lethal), and so I'm left thinking that for the discerning Assassin it seems most prudent to carry a clip of APDS ammo for the killshots, and stock up on SnS and/or Gel rounds for the rest.

Thoughts?

[Ryo]

Remember that if your AP exceeds the armor of the target, you can't split the damage, so shooting a sniper rifle loaded with APDS is a terrible option if you're trying not to kill people.

[martinchaen]

Hey, good point, Ryo. Duly noted. Make sure to bring Stick-n-Shock rounds for overwatch duty with the sniper rifle. Check!

[reyjinn]

Is there a specific reason why you are dismissing gel rounds? Just curious if I'm missing something here.

[martinchaen]

reyjinn, no, not really. Good catch!

Updated table above.

[SichoPhiend]

Just double checked the book to be sure before opening my mouth

But SnS rounds have a flat -5AP that replaces the AP of the weapon so your assault rifle would be -5, not -7

[martinchaen]

SichoPhiend Good catch, I'd completely missed that. Thanks! Updating table.

[Top Dog]

I think it's also important to consider that you need to actually make the called shot for split damage. That costs you a free action, which you can use for other things (for one, you can do a called shot for +2 DV on the gel/SnS). On top of that, you do full stun damage with the gel/sns, instead of just half (doing half physical has it's own advantages, of course, but I think it's less often useful).

Otherwise, I'm wondering if your math is correct. For one, you're averaging rolls to whole numbers. For this purpose, you're better off just taking fractional averages; having, say, 13.5 average damage is better then average 13 damage, after all. For another, the math should be a bit more complex. Unless you're sniping, defense tests matter, for one (high defense makes called shots worse, for example), and with these dice pools, limits come into play as well.

In the end though, I think it's more important to compare Ex-Ex to APDS, and Gel to SnS, because the first shouldn't really be used to do stun damage with anyway, as you already concluded (aside from emergencies of course). And for those, net hits would be the same anyway.

Side note: armor shouldn't matter, unless you're attacking an unarmored target (making armor piercing useless), or armor is too low (so you can't split damage), or armor is too high (meaning splitting damage is a bad idea). In the first two cases, you'd obviously go for gel/ex-ex; but those are not that important because the other ammo types will drop them anyway. In the latter, you'd still go with the highest raw damage, you just won't split damage. In ordinary cases, however, armor is "enough" for AP value not to matter besides just increasing effective damage.

[martinchaen]

Top Dog, that's a great point, I forgot about the +2DV called shot.

And yes, I am totally simplifying the math, basically using Buying Hits, not accounting for defense rolls, and discarding other factors that would normally influence the efficiency in these cases. This is because I'm looking for potential; you're right on the averaging, though, I'll rework it with averages instead of buying hits. Limits have not been a factor as every gun I'm using has a limit of 6 or higher, which is more than the average roll I get.

Another good point regarding comparisons of like to like. APDS to split damage is provenly a bad idea, considering I could end up piercing armor fully (not very likely, since most AV is 9 or up on the security goons, for instance, but certainly possible).

One thing that I haven't considered is creatures that have potential immunities. For example, can electricity damage affect creatures that normal damage (stun and physical) cannot?

And can Called Shot: Shake Up be used with SnS rounds for a -10 modifier to initiative if it hits (-5 for Shake Up) and does at least 1 damage (-5 for Electricity)?

Input would again be highly appreciated, and thanks to everyone who's contributed.

[Top Dog]

Unfortunately, your gun's accuracy matters quite a bit even if your average is lower then the limit. The average considers exceptionally high rolls as well, after all. For example, with a simple model (only hits, ignoring glitches and such), your SMG's 19 dice gets an average of 6.33 hits. However, once you introduce a limit of 6, this drops to 5.35.

That only matters for high dice pool, (relatively) low-accuracy weapons though - with 14 dice and accuracy 7, the difference drops to a mere 0.08 (thanks, anydice!). That means you can pretty much ignore it for the sniper rifle (you had a lower dice pool), it plays a minor effect with your assault rifle (assuming you had an accurate one), but it has a large effect on your SMG.

Ignoring limits, a called shot to the vitals would do .66 more damage; 4 dice less lowers the hits by 1.33, but DV increases by 2. With a limit of 6, however, the difference between 16 and 20 dice is only 0.6 (4.87 vs 5.47), meaning the called shot does 1.4 more damage on average, making it the obvious better choice. With less dice - for example, your sniper rifle versus an agile target under bad visibility - called shots are a bad idea, as the chance you'll miss becomes significant.

Ultimately I can understand you can't have an entirely accurate model, though - there's too many (often unknown!) variables to consider in actual play. It's important to know where the edge cases start to occur, though, so you're at least aware of them.

Other points; I don't think you can use electrical damage versus stun/physical immune weapons, but it's a good question. Combining Shake Up with Stick and Shock is something I was discussing with a friend earlier; we figured it was rather powerful, but also that it's rules-legal to do. After all, they're fully seperate effects.

[BetaCAV]

How about Injector rounds and Narcoject, for comparison's sake?

What are the implications for Burst Fire (or full auto) on less lethal attacks?

[The Masked Ferret]

One thing that I haven't considered is creatures that have potential immunities. For example, can electricity damage affect creatures that normal damage (stun and physical) cannot?

And can Called Shot: Shake Up be used with SnS rounds for a -10 modifier to initiative if it hits (-5 for Shake Up) and does at least 1 damage (-5 for Electricity)?

1. According to my understanding, because SnS is doing elemental (lightning) damage, it would effect things that are immune to normal damage (like spirits). Unless they are immune to stun damage or electricity, then they ignore it.

2. I would say that they stack. Nasty combo. Can't wait to use it on my players. The sniper hits you for 15s and you loose 10 initiative.

[martinchaen]

BetaCAV I did consider Injector rounds and Narcojet, but dismissed them due to A) requiring a special skill that only works for that specific purpose, B) it's a toxin, and as such even with a speed of Immediate does not take effect until the end of the combat turn, and C) they cost 75 + 50 per round, making them more expensive than any other round apart from Assault Cannon rounds.

Burst Fire and Full auto reduces the defense pool; more chance of hitting, and of doing damage, as far as I can tell.

The Masked Ferret That is my interpretation as well, since the damage does not come from the bullet impacting them causing trauma (Gel rounds) or penetrating them and ripping a hole in their insides (APDS and EX).

And you're welcome!

[Top Dog]

So I was wondering how much influence armor and defense pools actually had in a real-world scenario, so I decided to punch in some numbers. I figured I might as well use my own character's stats, since why not.

To calculate the probabilities, I used an anydice-function found at http://anydice.com/program/2b0f. Thanks to Robertflatt at http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=6883.0 for the original (SR4) version; I modified it to add an accuracy limit and remove shots.

My gun adept specializes in automatics, giving 20 dice with his assault rifle, 18 with his SMG, and 17 with his (backup, non-smartlinked) machine pistol. Accuracies are high at 9, 8 and 6; this means they only really matter for the Machine Pistol, as we shall see. Damage values are 10, 7 and 6.

I'll be firing single shots at a moderatly agile (6 defense dice) target with a fairly standard amount of soak dice (3 body + 9 armor, 12 dice). Turns out this actually matters quite a bit; you're likely to get quite different results for a long burst.

Here are, then, the numbers for average damage, over 5 ammo types (I included regular ammo as a comparison), with and without called shots (Vitals):

Code: [Select]

Acc Reg CS_Reg Gel CS_Gel SnS CS_SnS ExEx C_ExEx APDS C_APDS
FN HAR 9 10,95 11,19 10,63s 10,88s 9,99s 10,28s 12,23 12,39 12,23 12,39
HK-227 8 6,68 6,98 6,36s 6,70s 6,36s 6,70s 7,93 8,11 7,93 8,11
Ceska Blk Scorp 6 4,94 5,56 4,63s 5,29s 4,63s 5,29s 6,17 6,64 6,17 6,64
Some interesting notes:

• With the addition of defense dice, called shots become a lot less effective. They're still better, in every case (here), then not doing a called shot, but the difference is quite small, especially for the FN and HK.
• Gel = SnS, and ExEx = APDS. This doesn't hold for weapons with native AP for Stick and Shock, for SichoPhiend's reason, so gel is clearly better there. Of course, they're not quite the same, but at least for these scenario's the averages are (the different ammo types do have different bell curves), and that's close enough.
• For the lower-accuracy weapon, Called shots make a lot more difference than for the high accuracy weapons, for the reasons I discussed earlier. My gun adept has quite high accuracies, which makes this effect less pronounced; if I were to fire an AK without the benefit of my adept accuracy boost, the average damage would be 8.48 without, and 9.63 with a called shot (with regular ammo).
• For non-combat focussed characters with lower dice pools, called shots are bad. In fact, your dice pool doesn't have to be that low for called shots to be bad. Consider your sniper rifle example (pre-edit) with 14 dice; if the target doesn't defend, you gain 0.55 damage for using a called shot, but if he does defend (with 6 dice as per my example) you loose 1.19 damage

Considering the above, I'd say SnS is clearly better for a weapon without native AP, because -5 init is yummie. For a weapon with AP, Gel has the upper hand in damage (and, of course, in the wallet department).
On the physical side I'd go with APDS. Explosive is obviously better against unarmored targets, but practically, if a target is unarmored you're likely to kill it anyway if you have a decent weapon. APDS makes it more likely to do lethal damage against heavily armored targets, and also doesn't explode your gun if you roll bad. Of course you pay for that.

For your assassin, I'd go with Gel for the generic nonlethal rounds, and APDS for the lethal rounds.

[ZeConster]

Stick-n-shock helps if taking down the target is a group effort, though - that -1 on all actions and Defense Tests will make them slightly easier to hit, and that -5 to their Initiative Score may put them below some of your allies in the Initiative order, and perhaps even cost them an IP. Plus it means you won't have to switch ammo if drones get involved. So while Gel rounds are an adequate budget approach for non-lethal (especially with bigger guns), stick-n-shock also has its merits (especially with smaller guns).