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Multiple Ejection racks and weapon mounts

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Mantis

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« on: <10-13-13/0249:20> »
Posted this on Dumpshock but I'm going to ask here as well.
Eurowar Antiques introduces the multiple ejection rack hardware (pg 48) as a way to mount multiples of a given type of weapon onto a single weapon mount. Basically a missile or rocket rack I suppose. The problem is that it isn't clear what type of mount it would go on, the standard or the reinforced. There is a single * note that says but it is on the sextuple rack only. The other types have no such notation.
So can I use this thing to mount missiles or rockets on an aircraft on a regular weapon mount? That seems to be what all the example aircraft in this book are doing where it lists standard loadouts. Basically buy one of the other types of this rack (2, 3 or 4 pods) and mount it on a regular weapon mount and then jam the appropriate number of air to air missiles or whatever on there. Is that what was intended?
Are missiles and rockets used in this fashion considered to be the size of an LMG then, which is the largest weapon that you are supposed to be able to mount on the normal weapon mount?
Seems like a really useful piece of gear if it can be used this way. If not, then none of the weapon loadouts in Eurowars make any sense.

Mirikon

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« Reply #1 on: <10-13-13/0749:34> »
Well, you can already mount missiles or bombs on a regular mount unless otherwise noted. Cruise missiles obviously need a special launcher, but normal missiles/rockets/bombs? Nah.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #2 on: <10-13-13/0753:48> »
The idea of this one, if I recall correctly, is mounting multiples onto something that usually can only handle one. So if the launcher doesn't require Reinforced normally, I don't think most multiple ejection racks would require ones.
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Mantis

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« Reply #3 on: <10-13-13/1909:16> »
Well, you can already mount missiles or bombs on a regular mount unless otherwise noted. Cruise missiles obviously need a special launcher, but normal missiles/rockets/bombs? Nah.
The actual limit listed in Arsenal for what you can mount on a regular weapon mount is LMG size weapons or smaller. So are missiles and rockets smaller than an LMG? I've seen it suggested that you just go by the weapon listings chart in Arsenal as a size comparison but that means things like the MGL-6 pistol sized grenade launcher would be considered bigger than an LMG which is just stupid. So what should be the breaking point? Should I spend a bunch of time looking up real world weapons and comparing their relative sizes?

Mirikon

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« Reply #4 on: <10-13-13/2354:54> »
Well, that's a grey area, Mantis. But just going by what I've seen, I'd say that grenade/missile launchers would be the size of a LMG. Seems to me the reinforced mount is primarily for MMGs, HMGs, and Assault Cannons, as well as the things larger than that.
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Mantis

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« Reply #5 on: <10-14-13/0207:15> »
Stupid grey areas. But yeah that is what I am leaning towards as well. I wish they hadn't used size as an indicator of what could fit on these mounts with no real size attribute on the relevant weapons. If it was vehicles, for example they could just say anything of Body X or smaller could fit but weapons don't have that sort of distinction. A Vindicator is a LMG but it is certainly bigger in its dimensions than an Ingram Whiteknight.

Reaver

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« Reply #6 on: <10-18-13/2108:22> »
Stupid grey areas. But yeah that is what I am leaning towards as well. I wish they hadn't used size as an indicator of what could fit on these mounts with no real size attribute on the relevant weapons. If it was vehicles, for example they could just say anything of Body X or smaller could fit but weapons don't have that sort of distinction. A Vindicator is a LMG but it is certainly bigger in its dimensions than an Ingram Whiteknight.

yep.

which makes this a "GMs call" ruling.... talk it over with your GM and see what he has to say.

If you are the GM, then go with your gut and what you think is appropriate for your game.
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Mantis

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« Reply #7 on: <10-19-13/0324:18> »
Yeah already talked it over. We weren't so concerned with things like helicopters having this sort of thing as much as drones having it. Just too easy to bring a lot of pain into a fight that way. And yeah, I know the CIA already does this today. It hasn't really been an issue in our games previously because we've never had a helicopter at our disposal before. Suddenly the lack of clarity in many of the mil-spec rules starts rearing its ugly head when we you begin to look at ways to use our shiny new helicopter.
Anyway, for the record we are going with the multiple ejection racks being for gravity weapons only (bombs) but allowing missiles and rockets to be attached to a regular weapon mount. I kind of miss the old days with 3rd ed and the hardpoint/firmpoint distinction. Much clearer.

Reaver

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« Reply #8 on: <10-19-13/0335:30> »
Yeah already talked it over. We weren't so concerned with things like helicopters having this sort of thing as much as drones having it. Just too easy to bring a lot of pain into a fight that way. And yeah, I know the CIA already does this today. It hasn't really been an issue in our games previously because we've never had a helicopter at our disposal before. Suddenly the lack of clarity in many of the mil-spec rules starts rearing its ugly head when we you begin to look at ways to use our shiny new helicopter.
Anyway, for the record we are going with the multiple ejection racks being for gravity weapons only (bombs) but allowing missiles and rockets to be attached to a regular weapon mount. I kind of miss the old days with 3rd ed and the hardpoint/firmpoint distinction. Much clearer.

well, what you could do, is look at the size of the drone and make a judgement call....

Missiles and rockets are heavy, so the drone would need mass to carry them... obviously a small drone couldn't carry rack of 4 Sidewinder missiles....

But a large or Heavy drone? Much more plausible.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #9 on: <10-19-13/0817:20> »
Well, depending on the size of the drone, you might want to limit the size of the rack you can put on there. For instance, maybe limit it to a dual rack on a Predator drone, and a Quad (or perhaps even Triple) rack on the Reaper. Save the sextuple rack for actual aircraft. But that's just how I'd do it.

Honestly, though, I don't see it being a major problem, so long as your players understand that bringing that kind of ordinance to the party WILL draw attention. Doing that in any part of the sprawl that isn't Barrens will bring the attention of not just the Knights, but also the National Guard or regular military, as well as the more elite corpsec. Even in the Barrens, it is going to get you noticed when drones start doing bombing runs with anything more powerful than a grenade launcher. However, I will admit that I've paid for a Reaper retrofitted to remove the Obsolete quality, and loaded it up with two LMGs with ExEx, a quad-rack with incendiary bombs, and a quad-rack with frag bombs. Rockets and missiles are fun, but they're damn expensive. Bombs, on the other hand, are cheap, and there are a couple good ones you can get at chargen. Most of the time, I just kept the chameleon coating going, and used the LMGs to attack. But the bombs were nice to have whenever the situation boiled down to "Pink Mohawk or die".

Remember, being Black Trenchcoat may mean that 'Wrath of a Vengeful God' isn't your Plan A, or even Plan B or C, but that doesn't mean you can't bring out the ultraviolence when stealth fails. Take James Bond. Most of the time, he is basically Black Trenchcoat (well, as black trenchcoat as a face gets). But when the chips are down, EVERYTHING goes boom.
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Reaver

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« Reply #10 on: <10-19-13/0843:14> »

Remember, being Black Trenchcoat may mean that 'Wrath of a Vengeful God' isn't your Plan A, or even Plan B or C, but that doesn't mean you can't bring out the ultraviolence when stealth fails. Take James Bond. Most of the time, he is basically Black Trenchcoat (well, as black trenchcoat as a face gets). But when the chips are down, EVERYTHING goes boom.

Plus, it makes great entertainment watching him blow up bad guys  ;D
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Mantis

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« Reply #11 on: <10-20-13/0240:17> »
Pretty much our plan. We've decided that the military shouldn't be the only ones with air support but that takes planning to make a system that does what we want but doesn't scream HEY COME KILL US CUZ WE GOT MIL-SPEC UP HERE. And yeah, missiles, bombs and HMGs are fun every so often. Initial option was a Vigilant Autocannon but the damn ammo costs more than the gun. For that matter, the AV stuff ended up costing more than the gun, the door guns, the missiles and our first born. So we dialed things back a bit.