[Beaumis]

Any oldtimers remember the Ares MP-3 laser weapon?

Dropped from 2.5 mil in the Street Samurai Catalogue (2050) to 120k in Fields of Fire (54/55). And we still laughed it off because it was basically useless as a weapon.

Unless, the point here being that orichalcum gets almost the entirety of its pricing from its rarity, and not it's magical potential. Or again, that the magical-*released*-potential *as a regeant* of orichalcum is (20 nuyen's worth) per 1.77, while its usage in other circumstances could be widely different. Making orichalcum a regeant-usable substance to be *solely* calculated on weight, as opposed to everything else. That could be actually a very fine explanation, if a bit overly complicated.

Actually, my point was that we don't have a price for Orichalcum because it's not listed in the book and extrapolating from its substitution good just doesn't work. A ikea desk and and either of the two resolute desks have the same innate potential to serve as firewood, but one can be had for as low as 50 bucks while the other is a priceless artifact that will never ever be put up for auction even if someone was willing to pay of the entirety of the UK's or USA's national debt in return. (Loaded example is loaded, yeah. For an easier example a mahagony desk will be way more expensive, depending on quality and craftsmanship. And it will still have the same properties in terms of serving as firewood.)

It may have a price, and it is likely a lot higher than reagents and it is probably mostly based in its rarity, but also because Orichalcum is the benchmark in terms of power and it is simply a pain in the ass to create. It requires lots of time, lots of mojo and basically forces you to break the laws of chemistry. Since the mana level is now high enough for other sources to fill the same basic need, Orichalcum is simply not produced in large quantities anymore (not that it ever really was).

There is also a market for Orichalcum that cannot be satisfied by other reagents:

Obtaining telesma may be simple or complex—if the formula calls for a knife it may be no more difficult than buying a blade from the local Weapons World franchise, but if the formula calls for a flute carved from the bones of a California condor, you might need to do some work to track down the item in question. (P. 306 Core)

If some random eccentric mage decides only his own work is good enough (because traditional formulae are for peasants) and creates his own focus formula, he may well end up botching it in a way that the only way he can solve some problem with his formula is by using Orichalcum. The same may happen with exceptionally high force formulae. Orichalcum may also be used in magical research, when you'd rather work with a pure medium than risk imperfections because you went the cheap route. Loosing essence because you botched the Artificing test is no joke.

At the end of the day, Orichalcum is a market good and every good is worth what it's purchaser will pay for it. Given that Orichalcum is a commodity exclusive to the awakened and the awakened happen to be an arrogant and generally overpaid bunch, it's no surprise the price of something that is not necessarily better but much more exclusive than its substitution good would be much higher.

[Reaver]

again, but solely for the sake of argument, because i fully agree with you there, but the problem exists when you decide to use orichalcum in *other* situations, where the price radically skyrockets. (per wiki and sr4, sr5 still doesnt have any actual sr5 rules for it.)

your example is one of regeants vs regeants, where a bunch of rare feathers or a quartz crystal or 1.77 grams of orichalcum basically does all the same magical equivalent thing when used *as* regeants

But with the various orichalcum pricings, its mostly like saying ''You can use your litter of milk to drink it, and it'll cost you 2 bucks.''
OR, you can use that liter of milk, and add it to some other recipe, and the *milk* part of your milk, well, now it costs 1504 bucks (a bit less by sr4 standards), other ingredients notwithstanding in the calculations, because milk is super rare. (i'd use motor metaphors, but i'm not much of a gearhead)

And thats where i find the explanations lacking. Of course, nothing IN that sentence says anything about the dram of 1.77 grams of orichalcum being WORTH 20 nuyen, thats just an extrapolation of the facts that a) 1.77 grams of orichalcum = 1 regeant worth of magic power, and b) You can buy regeants in various forms for 20 nuyen. In my mind, that makes it c) 1.77 grams of orichalcum could reasonnably be prixed 20 nuyens, its approximative and likely unreasonnable, but in no way ''752 times the price'' approximative

ok, *for the sake of argument*
(you'll find I use a lot of electrical examples... I am an electrician, so it just comes naturally)

An other example for you: Did you know that Gold and sliver are used for fine electrical connections in many electronics? the properties of Silver and gold make it an excellent conductor, and it's ductility means it's easily worked with... does not Arc, and doesn't pit, cold flow, or electron corrode?

So silver and gold get used in things like smartphones, speaker connections, and the like.....


now gold is currently what? $1300 an ounce?? yet, I can pick up gold plated speaker connections for cheap ($25-$50)...... How can this be when Gold is worth so much?!?!



And why is it when I bought my daughter her Grad ring I paid well OVER the cost of the gold?


*****


the real question is "why do you care?" (other then the sake of the argument ) If I had a player that came to me and said "I want a ring Power focus of PURE orichalcum!" I would attach such an astronomical price to it, I could use his eyeballs and optic nerves as a book mark (think Power focus + $2 mil).

And when he balked, and said "but the power focus in the book are <x> price" I would point out that they are not pure orichalcum, but a composite blend of orichalcum and other metals.... and that if he wants a pure Orichalcum power focus he is going to pay a premium for such an item... even though it is no better then a regular power focus.... but at least he gets to write it down on this sheet....

(Kinda like those fools who buy $300,000 Iphones encrusted with gems.. The phone doesn't work any better [actually it works worse from what I have heard], but they get the pleasure of saying they have a ruby and diamond encrusted IPhone)


I have no doubt that Orichalcum is still amazing expensive, and that there is probably a few mages with more money then brains who insist on using only pure orichalcum as a reagent... but it really isn't needed as a $20 reagent is going to do the same job as your $5000 Orichalcum reagent So go ahead and "piss money away"... ain't my money


Honestly, magic and the world has changed (as it has in all editions)... the mana field is getting stronger... and what was once only dreamed about is getting easier to do with less.... or just isn't possible at all (IE: grounding)... And I really don't know of anything that requires pure Orichalcum anymore (once, Foci HAD to made with it... now not so much).... what used to take orichalcum to make can now be made with pure iron, or other metals... or stones.. or feathers!


We should be both happy and scared! Happy cause we no longer are beholden to the Megas for what little Orichalcum they wish to sell (thus keeping the price artificially high... AND limiting the number of foci available on the market).

Scared, cause as the mana levels continue to increase, who knows what other magical horrors are waiting for us.... Shedim and bug spirits can't possibly be the only "evil" things beyond the veil....... Soon, the Purple People Eaters will come... then, then the world is doomed!!!


****

basically remember raw materials doesn't actually set the price... Labour, shipping, market demand, taxes, tarrifs and a host of other government laws and duties, and operational costs make up the price. And prices can be influenced through a lot of factors such as market manipulation (look at Oil speculators today.. or Gold bonds) Market demand VS an artificially low production (IPhone 5), so simple consumer want (Milk! Cost to make, produce, distribute has dropped by 83% in 20 years... but the price has risen by 245% in the same 20 years)

there are lots of factors that make up the price of something, and I see SR5 as more of a "market correction" then a "drastic" change. It made no sense back in 1 and 2e why a Foci HAD to be with Orichalcum, yet the foci cost way LESS then the cost of the ore, and we still have to pay the guy forging and enchanting the item! So I personally see it as someone at Catalyst going "Hmm.. this really makes no sense! We should change the rules so that foci and reagents can be made of anything, thus bringing the prices more in line. But to keep SR flavor alive we will use a Dram of Orichalcum as the measurement standard for reagents!"





***

(KrasskenDazs, I have no problem playing the "devil" to the argument! lets see where we can take it... as long as it stays civil on both sides We don't need Fastjack swinging around with his hammer And, no, I don't feel slighted yet at all... just a gentle reminder of the Forum rules for both of us or anyone else that wishes to join in on either side )

[Reaver]

... An ikea desk and and either of the two resolute desks have the same innate potential to serve as firewood, but one can be had for as low as 50 bucks while the other is a priceless artifact that will never ever be put up for auction even if someone was willing to pay of the entirety of the UK's or USA's national debt in return. (Loaded example is loaded, yeah. For an easier example a mahagony desk will be way more expensive, depending on quality and craftsmanship. And it will still have the same properties in terms of serving as firewood.)

I totally disagree!!!!!








Particle board burns way too quickly, and doesn't give off the same "heat" or color of flames as good, old fashioned aged and polished hardwood!!

[Beaumis]

And there I sat, thinking, some guy is going to tell me that the varnish in some wood affects how well it burns. Nah, you don't have to cover that. They'll get the analogy.

So.. uhm... I can turn either into a sledge and get down the hill equally fast?

[Reaver]

And there I sat, thinking, some guy is going to tell me that the varnish in some wood affects how well it burns. Nah, you don't have to cover that. They'll get the analogy.

So.. uhm... I can turn either into a sledge and get down the hill equally fast?

A sledge?? or a Sleigh??


Not sure about a sledge.. there really isn't a lot of either stone or metal in both  the antique or the ikea desk...

But lots of wood for a Sleigh, at least in the antique... not sure how well a particle board sleigh would work




.....



unless you are Dutch... then a Sledge IS a sleigh!

or Australian! Then a sledge is an insult of verbal abuse to cause distraction during a game (usually cricket) of an opposing player!




isn't language fun    Different words with different meanings in different countries and cultures.... No wonder so many people have problems with some of the wording in the SR book 

[Beaumis]

Well, Im neither Dutch nor Australian, but yeah, the snow thingy.

[KraakenDazs]

... An ikea desk and and either of the two resolute desks have the same innate potential to serve as firewood, but one can be had for as low as 50 bucks while the other is a priceless artifact that will never ever be put up for auction even if someone was willing to pay of the entirety of the UK's or USA's national debt in return. (Loaded example is loaded, yeah. For an easier example a mahagony desk will be way more expensive, depending on quality and craftsmanship. And it will still have the same properties in terms of serving as firewood.)

Actually, thats an analogy i find extremely satisfying to represent the orichalcum situation, and it illustrates quite well both the magical ag''ompf!'' of orichalcum dram pricing of 20 nuyen, and the fact that its actual market price would (and has, in other editions) skyrocket WELL above the 20 nuyen for 1.77 grams. Basically i'm convinced

(And someday, i will make sure my mage player ends up with near-fatal wounds, alone, with a statuette made of pure orichalcum right next to him, giving him the horrible choice of dying, or using it all up as regeants for spellcasting and saving his a**. SOMEDAY.)

And aye, my argumenting was never meant to offend, nor to piss off anyone, i just really enjoy prodding and poking and expanding on concepts, i'd probably would've been the first one to apologize and end the subject if anyone had actually gotten mad over it

And now i'd keep arguing and adding fuel to the debate but uh... yeah, i'm convinced the RAW works quite well, no matter what the 5e prices/weight of a unit for ori ends up being! Cheers!