[RHat]

You don't have to have a power built character for the problems to set in. Shaman/Face with Summoning 6, Charisma 8, Willpower 4, Magic 6 with a Mentor Spirit, Specialization, or weak Focus adding 2 dice will easily get a service from, say, a Force 9 spirit.  They'll generally take a bit of damage, but it's not gonna be catastrophic - and they can spend Edge on the Drain Resistance if they really need to.  That means DV+Net Hits+AP must be 18 or higher to effect then, and even then they get up to 9 auto hits to soak, on top of a further 7-13 dice to soak.  Their basic ranged attack is DV18 -9AP, with a dice pool of 16-21.

Yes it does, as evidenced by your example stats there which is a "power built character".

It very much isn't.  It's a result of a set of decisions even a very new player would make based on the character concept - they decide that they want to be a sort of mediator that serves both the spirit world and the phyiscal plane.  They realize that Charisma is important to everything they want to do, so they make sure to set that as high as they can.  They don't want their character to be easily influenced, so they take a decent willpower.  Given how defining Magic is to the character, they take a high Magic priority - but perhaps an Aspected one, if they don't see spells as part of the character.  They take a focus as a background element, but keep it low rating since its all they can afford.

A power built version of that character setup for this specifically would have a higher Drain pool, a Specialization in Air Spirits, the Eagle Mentor, and a Force 4 Air Spirit Focus (plus some stuff for the Face side, and probably Quick Healer or something for the Drain, as well as a point or two of Edge), instead rolling 22 dice to summon an Air spirit, which is easily enough dice to go for any Air spirit the player wants to deal with the Drain for.

[All4BigGuns]

No, it's power built. Going further just goes into the realm of munchkin monstrosity.

[RHat]

No, it's power built. Going further just goes into the realm of munchkin monstrosity.

14 dice for the character's "thing" is not power built, period.

[Beaumis]

Beaumis:  Looking for specific lines, 99% certain I've seen explicit references in SR5.  Got the following so far from the Spell Binding service:

This is very painful for spirits and
generally considered to be abusive—if you use this don’t
forget that word gets around in the spirit world.

That's an interesting aspect, especially because it lends credibility to the old "Hive Mind" theory. For those who don't know this one, a long time ago there was a theory floating around that saw spirits not as individual entities but the home planes as one entity. Summoner's basically force a tiny portion of that entity to separate from the whole and condense into an astral form. By this theory, all spirits of a specific type are actually one and share their knowledge and experiences. When they are dismissed or disrupted, they return to the "oneness" but when they are destroyed, a rare occurrence but it does happen, the hive mind knows that it got killed in the service of a specific magician.

If you find the source, I'd be interested in it.

As for the oversummoning debate, I still think that is an issue that should be handled with roleplaying rather than the summoning test. Spirits and DMs have plenty of tools to make their summoner's life miserable. They don't need the dice help IMO.

In regards to the question of whether or not a force 9 spirit is a problem as in All4BigGuns' example, it seems to me the issue here is not really the force of the spirit but rather its powers. Damage numbers as the ones presented can be easily achieved with grenades and the like, so we don't really need weapons for that. The invulnerability to normal weapons is more of a problem here. But quite frankly, if a player wants to trade some damage for a one shot spirit that at best will allow him to trivialize one encounter, I'd allow him to do that. He won't get time to heal and I would definitely enforce the natural healing on drain rules. I mean, even if he only takes three drain, he is still trading a long term -1 to all tests to make one encounter easier. And the BBEG encounter will likely have means to deal with that spirit and his damage output and defenses.

All in all, I don't think spirits are so much the issue here as players and GMs not playing spirits as the individuals that they are. I can see how that is convenient for both sides, but the way I read the rules, they sort of depend on being treated as intelligent and sapient beings. If you treat them as dispensing robots, they basically become light tanks at the beck and call of the magician.

[Dracain]

No, it's power built. Going further just goes into the realm of munchkin monstrosity.

14 dice for the character's "thing" is not power built, period.

There is no more "thumbs up" button, so I just have to say that I quite agree. 

[Reaver]

The "Edge on over summoning" is a hold over from 4Ae that stated that spirits find being over summoned to be demeaning and insulting.

I am sure once the new street magic book comes out, it will be there again too....

[All4BigGuns]

No, it's power built. Going further just goes into the realm of munchkin monstrosity.

14 dice for the character's "thing" is not power built, period.

It's power built. It's just not munchkin to the extreme like 18+ dice is.

The "Edge on over summoning" is a hold over from 4Ae that stated that spirits find being over summoned to be demeaning and insulting.

I am sure once the new street magic book comes out, it will be there again too....

Hold over, yes. But that line (which exists in the SR5 book) is just trotted out as an excuse for doing it. Those spirits may be a bit insulted by a weaker Magician summoning them, but since they want to be in the world, they'll more than likely bite the bullet and go with it so long as the character hasn't gotten several dozen others disrupted.

[Reaver]

No, it's power built. Going further just goes into the realm of munchkin monstrosity.

14 dice for the character's "thing" is not power built, period.

It's power built. It's just not munchkin to the extreme like 18+ dice is.

The "Edge on over summoning" is a hold over from 4Ae that stated that spirits find being over summoned to be demeaning and insulting.

I am sure once the new street magic book comes out, it will be there again too....

Hold over, yes. But that line (which exists in the SR5 book) is just trotted out as an excuse for doing it. Those spirits may be a bit insulted by a weaker Magician summoning them, but since they want to be in the world, they'll more than likely bite the bullet and go with it so long as the character hasn't gotten several dozen others disrupted.

it's possible yes.... basically that is going to be a "table call".... there is no hard and fast rule either way.. and like all rules, every table is open to using or discarding (or even changing) as they see fit.

The only big question marks really is missions play.... which is where the GM has to be a bit more careful with sticking to RAW....

[All4BigGuns]

The only big question marks really is missions play.... which is where the GM has to be a bit more careful with sticking to RAW....

The only thing with Missions is that it's harder to shoot down the 20 dice munchkin monstrosity that never should have seen the light of day.

[RHat]

It's power built. It's just not munchkin to the extreme like 18+ dice is.

...  Just no.  "Power built" is not something you can just stumble into by making reasonable decisions to build your character toward concept.

[All4BigGuns]

It's power built. It's just not munchkin to the extreme like 18+ dice is.

...  Just no.  "Power built" is not something you can just stumble into by making reasonable decisions to build your character toward concept.

And for what would fall under 'making reasonable decisions', take 1 rank of Summoning, 2 ranks of Charisma and the Mentor Spirit out (well later on, until then leave the Mentor to be a true shaman).

[Dracain]

The only big question marks really is missions play.... which is where the GM has to be a bit more careful with sticking to RAW....

The only thing with Missions is that it's harder to shoot down the 20 dice munchkin monstrosity that never should have seen the light of day.

I can't tell what you have against people who like to make characters effective at what they do, but trust me, it does not take a munchkin to make a character who has 14 dice for their "thing", the same could be said of 18 dice, I wouldn't even call it powergaming so much until it reaches at least 20 dice.  Though to be frank, I think that it is very rude that you continuously refer to the character types I like to build (specialists) as munchkin monstrosities.  Building a character within the system that is highly competent at something is a perfectly valid playstyle, and can be done quite easily in this system, and yet you continuously refer to it with disdain that I find to be unfounded. 

It's power built. It's just not munchkin to the extreme like 18+ dice is.

...  Just no.  "Power built" is not something you can just stumble into by making reasonable decisions to build your character toward concept.

I agree.  A solidly built character is not "power built" or a "munchkin monstrosity", to be honest, I am somewhat curious as to what you do consider a non-power built character.  Is it like "If they have more than 10 dice in anything at chargen, they are a powergaming munchkin"?  I mean, without any assistance from technology or magic, a human can get 14 dice in something easy by chargen rules, and then add in augments, other enhancements (foci, mentor spirits, and any number of other modifiers) and it is easy to get a fairly high number of starting dice, while still remaining true to the core character concept. 

[RHat]

Absolutely not - reasonable decisions do not involve scaling back from the things your character concept is supposed to be.  For the concept I mentioned, interacting with the spirit world (Summoning) and dealing with a wide array of spirits and metahumans (Charisma) is central, and thus investing in them is reasonable.  And I actually mentioned a half-allowable-rating focus when outlining the character concept, not a Mentor Spirit.

It's no different from a Street Sam having 14 dice to shoot - ludicrously easy to reach, and nigh-inevitable when building to such a concept (Agility 4(6), Weapon Skill 6, Wireless Implanted Smartlink or Specialization - higher is actually quite likely, depending on the player's image of the character).

It is, frankly, ludicrous to suggest that a character is "power-built" just because they're "Professional" in their defining skill or high/max ranked in their defining attribute.

[All4BigGuns]

Absolutely not - reasonable decisions do not involve scaling back from the things your character concept is supposed to be.  For the concept I mentioned, interacting with the spirit world (Summoning) and dealing with a wide array of spirits and metahumans (Charisma) is central, and thus investing in them is reasonable.  And I actually mentioned a half-allowable-rating focus when outlining the character concept, not a Mentor Spirit.

It's no different from a Street Sam having 14 dice to shoot - ludicrously easy to reach, and nigh-inevitable when building to such a concept (Agility 4(6), Weapon Skill 6, Wireless Implanted Smartlink or Specialization - higher is actually quite likely, depending on the player's image of the character).

It is, frankly, ludicrous to suggest that a character is "power-built" just because they're "Professional" in their defining skill or high/max ranked in their defining attribute.

The Shaman/Face doesn't need maximum Elf Charisma. A 6 Charisma works perfectly fine.

"Power built" is what one is likely to see from the average gamer, and yeah, 14 to 16 dice is to be expected in general, but that doesn't change that it's power built. Not power built is what one will see from the "RP Elitist" crowd that takes things that sometimes get referred to as "Underwater Basket Weaving".

[RHat]

The Shaman/Face doesn't need maximum Elf Charisma. A 6 Charisma works perfectly fine.

Mechanically yes, but if Charisma is part of a defining aspect of the character higher is reasonable, not "power building".  Your variation is a failure to realize the concept, really.