[Dracain]

Absolutely not - reasonable decisions do not involve scaling back from the things your character concept is supposed to be.  For the concept I mentioned, interacting with the spirit world (Summoning) and dealing with a wide array of spirits and metahumans (Charisma) is central, and thus investing in them is reasonable.  And I actually mentioned a half-allowable-rating focus when outlining the character concept, not a Mentor Spirit.

It's no different from a Street Sam having 14 dice to shoot - ludicrously easy to reach, and nigh-inevitable when building to such a concept (Agility 4(6), Weapon Skill 6, Wireless Implanted Smartlink or Specialization - higher is actually quite likely, depending on the player's image of the character).

It is, frankly, ludicrous to suggest that a character is "power-built" just because they're "Professional" in their defining skill or high/max ranked in their defining attribute.

The Shaman/Face doesn't need maximum Elf Charisma. A 6 Charisma works perfectly fine.

"Power built" is what one is likely to see from the average gamer, and yeah, 14 to 16 dice is to be expected in general, but that doesn't change that it's power built. Not power built is what one will see from the "RP Elitist" crowd that takes things that sometimes get referred to as "Underwater Basket Weaving".

If you're likely to see it from the average gamer, it isn't powergaming, it is gaming to the average expected powerlevel for the game. 

[All4BigGuns]

Incorrect. The average gamer "power games" at least a little. Though they're unlikely to admit it because when certain camps say 'power game' they mean 'munchkin'. Those are two entirely different things.

[Reaver]

the only thing that really screams "munchkin" to me is when a build lacks a rounded approach to the common challenges of the game. There really is only a few "core" and the rest are specialities...

IMO, the cores are:

Combat (pick a form... melee or ranged, astral, matrix, magical or drones.) you should be fair to good in at least 2 (meaning a skill pool of 2 to 5 to start)
Social (con, etiquette, neo, intimidate,) having a face is great, but you still got to interact with the world.... (pick one, should be between 2 to 5)
Info gathering of some sort, be it matrix, or people skills, this ties into Social and is related by skills... so you should have it already.

After that, you got the "acrhtypes" we all know and love.. and you should be good at your archtypes (skill of 3 to 6)
Unless you have some really cool backstory, none of your attributes should be a base 1... this is just screams munchkin as you couldn't find a spare point to up in that crippled attribute.


Remember, your character doesn't exist in a vacuum, and didn't spring from the ground as he is... he was born, grew up, and became what he is. And your skills should reflect that to some degree.... 

[All4BigGuns]

I can see someone not putting much into the Social Skills. These are an area in which there is a lot of the "play it out" attitude where rolls hardly ever occur, and as such it can get to a point where someone feels their points were 'wasted'.

[Reaver]

I can see someone not putting much into the Social Skills. These are an area in which there is a lot of the "play it out" attitude where rolls hardly ever occur, and as such it can get to a point where someone feels their points were 'wasted'.

we "play it out" to a degree, but the player is NOT their character, nor the character the player....

A smooth talking player who puts crap into their social skills should not be rewarded for be a smooth talking player... so the roll is important to distinguish between the two....

Same for a player that is social inept.... they should not be punished (even though their manner may invoke such  a knee jerk  reaction) for their personal faults, especially when they took the time and effort to give their characters good to decent social skills...


If all you do is "RP it out" you are depriving the face of pulling off some wicked Charms (like convincing a guard to leave his post, or even let you in!), and are basically just removing an entire level of complexity to the game that really shouldn't be ignored.

However, some tables do ignore, much to my frustration and annoyance... but that is their choice I guess...... (and really, it is allowed by house/table rules)

[All4BigGuns]

A smooth talking player who puts crap into their social skills should not be rewarded for be a smooth talking player... so the roll is important to distinguish between the two....

Same for a player that is social inept.... they should not be punished (even though their manner may invoke such  a knee jerk  reaction) for their personal faults, especially when they took the time and effort to give their characters good to decent social skills...


If all you do is "RP it out" you are depriving the face of pulling off some wicked Charms (like convincing a guard to leave his post, or even let you in!), and are basically just removing an entire level of complexity to the game that really shouldn't be ignored.

My sentiments exactly, unfortunately this seems to be the rare way to look at this... :/

[Reaver]

well, that is their choice... and they are welcome to play that way... as long as they understand that at a different table or a different GM might run things differently (more by the book, shall we say??)...

[Michael Chandra]

Whoa, a lot of posts happened here while I was gone. Hope you missed me by my talk.

Michael:  Would you disagree with the idea that if abuse and disrespect can move the "resist-with-Edge" barrier to lower Force, then respectful and kind treatment should do the reverse?

Not at all. I think one of the debates on this matter even went into numbers and included Spirit Affinity. Can't remember what I all said there but I seem to recall including some possible numbers in that one.

[Reaver]

Incorrect. The average gamer "power games" at least a little. Though they're unlikely to admit it because when certain camps say 'power game' they mean 'munchkin'. Those are two entirely different things.

I dislike the term "power gamer"

I prefer the terms "Optimized, Balanced, Munchkin, and Nerfed" (but that is my personal choice)


I agree with you in part though most player power game Optimize to some degree or an other.

Nothing wrong with making sure you are REALLY good at shooting a gun IF you are samurai... or REALLY good at slinging code IF you are a decker...
This is after all the focus of your character! You SHOULD be good at it.

but power gaming Optimizing crosses over into munchkinism when you push a single focus of the character to the point that you are totally inept at other facets of the game. I am not saying every character has to be great in all aspects, but they should be at least competent.


It the same with real life. (going to use my profession here, so I am going to lose some of you in the train of examples...)

For me, I am REALLY good at big picture thinking when it comes to the installation of control and monitoring devices. I know just from what the total process is, what sensor need to go where, how far apart they have to be for total coverage, I know where the regulators and boosters have to be placed to maintain a strong pneumatic signal and I know where the transmitters have to be installed to optimize cable and tube structure.
However, I am only "fair" at tube bending, and only "good" at wiring.... I "suck" at welding (even though I have my ticket...) so I choose to do welding only when there is no one better then me around. However, I an awesome man-lift operator.

If we put this into game terms:
Process control & installation: 5
Tube bending: 3
Wiring: 4
Welding: 2
Man-lift operation: 6

(and for that, I get paid very large sums of money)

So that is my core skill set as an Industrial Instrument Mechanic and Electrician. However that is not the end al of my skills....

I have received Basic small arms training, (weapons skills: pistols and automatics)

I have to deal with both employees, Supervisors, Clients and suppliers  (Etequette, Negotiation, bribery)

I have received medical training (first aid)

I have received basic survival training for extreme elements  (survival, specialized in Hot and Cold weather)

I understand the Electrical Code for 3 countries (law specialized into Code rules)

And that really is the tip of the iceburg.



Your character is more then just his Gun... or his spell, or his deck. You are a professional... and should have the attributes and skills to reflect that. No other group of professionals is going to work with a crippled idiot who drools until it's time to shoot something simply cause he is a liability to THEIR survival!

[RHat]

As far as power gaming goes, I'll say this:  If I had to create a definition of player types that provided for a structural method of differentiation, it would consist of a set of scales upon whoich I would expect every player to rank (complete with testing of each individual scale for all relevant forms of validity if I could), one of which would indeed be power gamer - everyone's got a bit of it.  If I were to use characters created to help measure these aspects, however, the equivalent of having 14 dice in your specialty would not be consider an indicator for power gaming.

[Dracain]

Incorrect. The average gamer "power games" at least a little. Though they're unlikely to admit it because when certain camps say 'power game' they mean 'munchkin'. Those are two entirely different things.

That would be incorrect.  Powergaming is not optimization of a character concept, nor visa-versa.  If someone comes to a natural conclusion when trying to make their character concept, and that happens to have 14 or more dice, they are just gaming, and that is what the rules state their character concept has for dice.  If someone goes to obtain as much dice in a skill as possible, that is a form of powergaming. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powergaming

[All4BigGuns]

Thank you for linking the perfect example of the fallacy. "Power gaming" is what most gamers do, but the term gets falsely applied to munchkin-antics. IMO, "optimization" is the same thing as as "munchkin building". Proof is found in the "optimized" 'builds' I've seen for Pathfinder which contain multiple attributes dumped to 7s. Utterly ridiculous but a perfect example of why "optimization" is munchkin.

[ZeConster]

If we're going to argue about terms like that, perhaps each person should explains what each term means for them. After all, to me, merely optimizing your character concept doesn't equal this, either:

In gaming, a munchkin is a player who plays what is intended to be a non-competitive game (usually a role-playing game) in an aggressively competitive manner. A munchkin seeks within the context of the game to amass the greatest power, score the most "kills", and grab the most loot, no matter how detrimental their actions are to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, or the other players' enjoyment. The term is used almost exclusively as a pejorative and frequently is used in reference to powergamers.

[RHat]

Of course, getting back to the root of this, Guns, you insisted that a character with 14 dice at chargen was "power-built" and that this was a reason they could be dismissed from consideration on whether or not high force spirits are an issue - which is also completely insufficient criteria upon which to dismiss a character from consideration here, but still.

[Michael Chandra]

Lessee... 7 Magic, 6 Summoning, +2 Specialization, +2 Mentor Spirit, +4 Summoning Focus... So that's 27 karma and 16k nuyen for 21 dice. A more solid character would be at 16.