[Dracain]

Dracain; that's presuming the PCs/NPCs even see the microdrone in the first place. Rules for perception tests state that an item that is "Hidden/Micro/Silent" is a Threshold 4 test, and in combat especially I would require an Observe In Detail test to even have a chance to notice a tiny insect-like drone flitting around. If the PC/NPC was combat, the "Perceiver is distracted" modifier would apply even on an Observe In Detail test (unless players specifically stated that they were looking for a minidrone), and depending on other factors, modifiers like "Object/sound not in immediate vicinity" and "Object/sound is far away" might also apply.

I do find it odd they don't get a modifier, but  that's not related to Take Cover and more the subject of a completely different topic.

Both are fair points, I just figured they could both go together rather well, fixing two problems with one solution, considering all cover really does is make your hit-box smaller anyway.  I only really suggested it because it seemed like a simpler and somewhat smoother way to do this, without changing up the balance, not to mention I think the idea that the cover isn't doing anything until you take an action is a little silly.  A waist high wall provides cover just by being there, but taking active cover will increase how much it helps.  I think I'll run this by my players and see if they want to try it, just to see if it works. 

[Xenon]

I find it strange that it is not harder to hit a small target.

No matter if the target is small because it is a small drone or because you only have a small area to hit because the target currently happen to be behind a wall that cover 90 % of his body (but he is not getting any bonus because he have not spend an action to fortify behind the cover).

If you spot a micro drone it will be as easy to hit as a van. A mini drone as easy to hit as a car.  A target you only see the head of its as easy to hit as a 10" troll out in the open.

Over simplified?

[Dracain]

I find it strange that it is not harder to hit a small target.

No matter if the target is small because it is a small drone or because you only have a small area to hit because the target currently happen to be behind a wall that cover 90 % of his body (but he is not getting any bonus because he have not spend an action to fortify behind the cover).

If you spot a micro drone it will be as easy to hit as a van. A mini drone as easy to hit as a car.  A target you only see the head of its as easy to hit as a 10" troll out in the open.

Over simplified?

I agree, which is why I'll be employing this houserule.  It sounds easier to explain, and employ in combat, as well as just makes more sense from both a fluff and crunch standing. 

[martinchaen]

A 10" troll isn't all that big, though, Xenon

And yes, it's obviously oversimplified. It generally works, in my opinion, though.

[Xenon]

I blame my Samsung keyboard. And strange American measures.

10' Troll!

Better

Actually let us just use metric and say 3 meter

[Xenon]

Yes it works. Faster too.

But get kinda strange in some situations...


Then again, GM can always rule that the shot is extra easy or hard and give the shooter an extra positive or negative dice pool modifier...

[Dracain]

Yes it works. Faster too.

But get kinda strange in some situations...


Then again, GM can always rule that the shot is extra easy or hard and give the shooter an extra positive or negative dice pool modifier...

The problem is that when using a grid system it is harder to justify them not having a bonus when they can literally say "I literally have a car between myself and the shooter", not to mention it punishes complex actions even more then they already are.  You already cannot do anything else, even move, and now you can't even take cover?  On another note, if you were to use this houserule, do you feel these numbers are right? 

[Top Dog]

[...] not to mention it punishes complex actions even more then they already are.  You already cannot do anything else, even move, and now you can't even take cover?

From what I understand you can still move fully when using a complex action, as movement is separate from actions in SR5 (apart from the run/sprint actions). If I'm mistaken, could you point out why?

Back on topic, I'd certainly support a houserule with smaller things being harder to hit. The numbers seem right, but it'd have to be playtested to be sure.

As for taking cover, if you're taking a complex action to shoot at someone, I'd find it reasonable that you don't have the time to also make good use of cover that's there - you're too busy lining up your shots to really think about how much you're exposing, so you end up exposing enough for you not to get a bonus. If there's a large object clearly obstructing a large area, it'd be different - but then it'd be a two-way street as well, and it'd have to be an extreme example.

[Xenon]

^This

When you take a complex action, lets say shooting bullets, then you spend the entire action phase doing it. If you have a pistol you aim, fire, aim, fire, aim, fire. As fast as possible. No time to duck and stay behind cover (or even recover recoil; be aware of progressive recoil when using this fire mode). You can still move while you do this (but if you run you take a negative dice pool modifier for that as well - you are not allowed to sprint...)

When you only use a single action to fire a bullet (or recklessly cast a spell) you also have time to duck behind cover to take advantage of it so you are harder to hit when it is time for the others to act.

[Dracain]

Fair enough, I figured I might as well put it out there. 

Moving on from the cover stuff, how would you handle character size if rules were implemented to deal with size?  Trolls are obviously large targets, and Dwarfs are obviously small, so should someone get a bonus/penalty to shooting them?

[Top Dog]

For balance reasons, I'd say no. They're roughly enough the same size anyway; it's mainly the things that's an order of magnitude smaller that should get a bonus.

[Dracain]

For balance reasons, I'd say no. They're roughly enough the same size anyway; it's mainly the things that's an order of magnitude smaller that should get a bonus.

That's what I was thinking,but it never hurts to get an outside opinion. 

[ZeConster]

However, the dwarf will have a far easier job using the Troll as a Body Barrier than the other way around.

[Dracain]

However, the dwarf will have a far easier job using the Troll as a Body Barrier than the other way around.

You've just put the best mental image in my head. 

[Alchemyst]

The problem is that when using a grid system it is harder to justify them not having a bonus when they can literally say "I literally have a car between myself and the shooter", not to mention it punishes complex actions even more then they already are.  You already cannot do anything else, even move, and now you can't even take cover?  On another note, if you were to use this houserule, do you feel these numbers are right?

So many literallies...haha.

Keep in mind that if the car is sufficiently large enough to completely obscure LoS, not only is the attacker suffering -6 to their DP (blind fire), the defender still gets to roll 4 dice to defend against the attack (unaware behind full cover), and the attack needs to penetrate the car and hit the target. Even if the attack hits, most weapons are not going to do more than tickle an equipped runner. Now heavy armor piercing weapons are another story but for good reason. As others have pointed out you can still move, no reason to repeat that part.

__________________________________________________________

As for size modifiers, I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that SR4 Arsenal had rules for just that.

Micro Target: Micro-sized targets such as insects and micro-drones are incredibly difficult to hit, especially at range. Apply a –6 dice pool modifier. At certain ranges, these targets may not even be visible without magnifi cation (meaning the Target Hidden Blind Fire modifier p. 141, SR4 p. 178 SR5, would apply as well).
Mini Target: Mini targets include minidrones, very large insects, small rodents, and similar small animals. Apply a –4 dice pool modifier.
Small Target: Small targets include small drones, cats, small dogs, babies and toddlers, and similar small creatures. Apply a –2 dice pool modifier.
Large Targets: Large targets such as car-sized and larger vehicles, some orks, most trolls, big trees, horses, and similar bulky creatures are easier to hit. As a general rule, anything with a Body of 8–14 counts as large. Apply a +1 dice pool modifier to the attack.
Massive Targets: Really, really big targets are rare, but hitting them can be as easy as shooting the side of a barn. This includes things like buildings, trucks, hovercraft , aircraft , and large creatures like dragons. As a general rule, anything with a Body of 15+ counts as [massive]. Apply a dice pool modifier of +2 or more, as appropriate.


On that note, I'd like to point out babies and toddlers as targets... What a morbid wet-work assignment that would be! (0_0)