[acolyte99]

Some people remarked, that it's strange to give dodge dice to the defender instead of substracting dice from the attacker. Subtracting was done in SR4 and it was changed to additional dodge dice in SR4A, because attackers often "forgot" to subtract dice when attacking targets with cover. Targets nearly never forget to add dice to dodge when they have cover.
At least that's what a dev said on a forum, IIRC.

[Dracain]

The problem is that when using a grid system it is harder to justify them not having a bonus when they can literally say "I literally have a car between myself and the shooter", not to mention it punishes complex actions even more then they already are.  You already cannot do anything else, even move, and now you can't even take cover?  On another note, if you were to use this houserule, do you feel these numbers are right?

So many literallies...haha.

Keep in mind that if the car is sufficiently large enough to completely obscure LoS, not only is the attacker suffering -6 to their DP (blind fire), the defender still gets to roll 4 dice to defend against the attack (unaware behind full cover), and the attack needs to penetrate the car and hit the target. Even if the attack hits, most weapons are not going to do more than tickle an equipped runner. Now heavy armor piercing weapons are another story but for good reason. As others have pointed out you can still move, no reason to repeat that part.

__________________________________________________________

As for size modifiers, I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that SR4 Arsenal had rules for just that.

Micro Target: Micro-sized targets such as insects and micro-drones are incredibly difficult to hit, especially at range. Apply a –6 dice pool modifier. At certain ranges, these targets may not even be visible without magnifi cation (meaning the Target Hidden Blind Fire modifier p. 141, SR4 p. 178 SR5, would apply as well).
Mini Target: Mini targets include minidrones, very large insects, small rodents, and similar small animals. Apply a –4 dice pool modifier.
Small Target: Small targets include small drones, cats, small dogs, babies and toddlers, and similar small creatures. Apply a –2 dice pool modifier.
Large Targets: Large targets such as car-sized and larger vehicles, some orks, most trolls, big trees, horses, and similar bulky creatures are easier to hit. As a general rule, anything with a Body of 8–14 counts as large. Apply a +1 dice pool modifier to the attack.
Massive Targets: Really, really big targets are rare, but hitting them can be as easy as shooting the side of a barn. This includes things like buildings, trucks, hovercraft , aircraft , and large creatures like dragons. As a general rule, anything with a Body of 15+ counts as [massive]. Apply a dice pool modifier of +2 or more, as appropriate.


On that note, I'd like to point out babies and toddlers as targets... What a morbid wet-work assignment that would be! (0_0)

Looking out over the top of a car typically means more that 50% of your body is behind some cover, looking over anything that is waist height still provides about 50% cover in fact.  This is why I think having some rules for "passive cover" could be beneficial. 

P.S.  There are only two uses of the word "literally" in the post, and while they are technically in the same sentence, the second one is a sentence being spoken by another person, the hypothetical "player" in my example.  Both uses denote that there is no exaggeration, the first saying that they can say that, and the second showing that there is no embellishment, there really is that much cover. 

[Alchemyst]

Looking out over the top of a car typically means more that 50% of your body is behind some cover, looking over anything that is waist height still provides about 50% cover in fact.  This is why I think having some rules for "passive cover" could be beneficial.

Yes but typically people aim at center of mass (torso/chest) and in Shadowrun, as with most table-tops, this is the default attack assumption. By not taking the "Take Cover" action, the character is treated as not trying to protect it. If people are already aiming at your chest, only covering waist down isn't going to help unless you actively duck.

Edit:
Also note that I said large enough in my post. Obviously a little compact is barely enough to completely hide a dwarf, but something along the lines of a pickup, SUV, loaded station wagon,
 etc especially with tints is plenty to fully obscure vision.

P.S.  There are only two uses of the word "literally" in the post, and while they are technically in the same sentence, the second one is a sentence being spoken by another person, the hypothetical "player" in my example.  Both uses denote that there is no exaggeration, the first saying that they can say that, and the second showing that there is no embellishment, there really is that much cover.

Was just playfully nitpicking.

[deek]

In my games, I also allow Take Cover to be maintained into the next Initiative Pass as long as the player doesn't move or take any action.  Once they do (move or take an action), they no longer have the benefits of Take Cover until they spend another Simple Action.

I haven't seen anything in the book to confirm that is correct, but it makes sense at our table.

[Dracain]

Looking out over the top of a car typically means more that 50% of your body is behind some cover, looking over anything that is waist height still provides about 50% cover in fact.  This is why I think having some rules for "passive cover" could be beneficial.

Yes but typically people aim at center of mass (torso/chest) and in Shadowrun, as with most table-tops, this is the default attack assumption. By not taking the "Take Cover" action, the character is treated as not trying to protect it. If people are already aiming at your chest, only covering waist down isn't going to help unless you actively duck.

Edit:
Also note that I said large enough in my post. Obviously a little compact is barely enough to completely hide a dwarf, but something along the lines of a pickup, SUV, loaded station wagon,
 etc especially with tints is plenty to fully obscure vision.

P.S.  There are only two uses of the word "literally" in the post, and while they are technically in the same sentence, the second one is a sentence being spoken by another person, the hypothetical "player" in my example.  Both uses denote that there is no exaggeration, the first saying that they can say that, and the second showing that there is no embellishment, there really is that much cover.

Was just playfully nitpicking.

This is all fair enough, and completely understandable, I was just explaining my train of thought.  After all, a Dwarf looking over the hood of a car, or a Human looking over the roof (with proper positioning, it still makes the shot harder) still is harder to hit, same could be said about someone peaking around a corner.  I just find it weird that there is no passive cover.  Concerning my explanation of the use of literally, that's just me going on about grammar, which is a bit of a bad habit of mine. 

Concerning the core rules on taking cover, it doesn't say that the bonus goes away when attacking, and seems to assume that the person is in a position to return fire.  Am I reading it wrong, or is this just another one of those "the wording is somewhat vague" situations that lead to a large amount of different interpretations of the same rule. 

[Alchemyst]

This is all fair enough, and completely understandable, I was just explaining my train of thought.  After all, a Dwarf looking over the hood of a car, or a Human looking over the roof (with proper positioning, it still makes the shot harder) still is harder to hit, same could be said about someone peaking around a corner.  I just find it weird that there is no passive cover.  Concerning my explanation of the use of literally, that's just me going on about grammar, which is a bit of a bad habit of mine. 

Concerning the core rules on taking cover, it doesn't say that the bonus goes away when attacking, and seems to assume that the person is in a position to return fire.  Am I reading it wrong, or is this just another one of those "the wording is somewhat vague" situations that lead to a large amount of different interpretations of the same rule.

Oh hey me too. No way for us to know exactly why they did what haha. Just good guesses. I think that has to do with the whole Mind's-Eye-Theatre approach so common in this game. Using mats can get very complicated with some rules. Cover for example (passive and such).

I assumed it was gained until you moved out however it seems a heavy topic so I didn't bring it up 

[Dracain]

I figure cover is gained until you move out of it, but the question is, does firing a gun/casting a spell/any other number of fancy things people do in this game from behind cover count as going out of cover? 

[Xenon]

I figure cover is gained until you move out of it, but the question is, does firing a gun/casting a spell/any other number of fancy things people do in this game from behind cover count as going out of cover?

You can use a ranged weapon while staying in cover by using Blind Fire (a negative dice pool modifier of 6 dice [p.178]) or Attacker firing from cover with imaging device (a negative dice pool of 3 dice [p.177]). You can also cast spells from cover if you use Optical Devices (a negative dice pool modifier of 3 dice [p.444]).

[Michael Chandra]

I figure cover is gained until you move out of it, but the question is, does firing a gun/casting a spell/any other number of fancy things people do in this game from behind cover count as going out of cover?

I don't think so. The Firing from Cover only applies when you're behind total cover after all. You're still there behind partial cover and firing away.

[Top Dog]

You can use a ranged weapon while staying in cover by using Blind Fire (a negative dice pool modifier of 6 dice [p.178]) or Attacker firing from cover with imaging device (a negative dice pool of 3 dice [p.177]). You can also cast spells from cover if you use Optical Devices (a negative dice pool modifier of 3 dice [p.444]).

That's from total cover. If you're behind "normal" cover (what you normally do with the Take Cover action) you're still partially exposed, which also means you can just fire back at the other guy without fancy things.

[Xenon]

I figure cover is gained until you move out of it, but the question is, does firing a gun/casting a spell/any other number of fancy things people do in this game from behind cover count as going out of cover?

I don't think so. The Firing from Cover only applies when you're behind total cover after all. You're still there behind partial cover and firing away.

It applies when you are in cover (which might or might not mean you have to be in total cover).

If you take the action to take cover behind a car and lift your right arm to shoot over the hood with your smartgun heavy pistol you are in good cover and get +4 dice when you take a defense test if someone shoot back at you. You are also firing from Cover with Imaging Device which give you -3 dice.

If you just stand behind a car you are not Taking Cover and you will not get a positive dice pool modifier to your defense test.

[Dracain]

I figure cover is gained until you move out of it, but the question is, does firing a gun/casting a spell/any other number of fancy things people do in this game from behind cover count as going out of cover?

I don't think so. The Firing from Cover only applies when you're behind total cover after all. You're still there behind partial cover and firing away.

It applies when you are in cover (which might or might not mean you have to be in total cover).

I'll be honest, I thought those were for total cover as well.  Perhaps someone should ask on the errata thread. 

[Kincaid]

Firing from Cover With an Imaging Device (p. 177, emphasis mine) is stuff like pointing your gun around a corner.  You can only do it with an imaging device and it assumes you're firing from total cover.  If you don't have an imaging device, you'd use the Blind Fire penalty.

Take Cover is an action that can result in either Good Cover or Partial Cover, depending on what the GM decides is available.  Since Partial Cover assumes only 25-50% of the defender's body is covered (so standing behind a waist-high wall, for example), I wouldn't require a player to spend another action on reestablishing cover in most cases--the wall isn't going anywhere.  Good cover is 50%+ and very well might require additional Simple Actions to reestablish, depending on the circumstance.  A human taking cover in a fairly deep doorway from corp sec down the hall might qualify for this bonus, but may also need to spend a Simple Action to duck back into the doorway after firing.  Obviously, if you're getting this bonus because you're prone, you don't need to reestablish it.

Weird rules note that I mentioned in the errata thread: If you take Partial Cover behind soft cover (so no barrier rating to speak of), you are actually easier to hit than if you took no cover at all.  For some strange reason, cover negates the "ties go to the defender" rule, which means attackers need one fewer net success to hit you.

[Dracain]

Firing from Cover With an Imaging Device (p. 177, emphasis mine) is stuff like pointing your gun around a corner.  You can only do it with an imaging device and it assumes you're firing from total cover.  If you don't have an imaging device, you'd use the Blind Fire penalty.

Take Cover is an action that can result in either Good Cover or Partial Cover, depending on what the GM decides is available.  Since Partial Cover assumes only 25-50% of the defender's body is covered (so standing behind a waist-high wall, for example), I wouldn't require a player to spend another action on reestablishing cover in most cases--the wall isn't going anywhere.  Good cover is 50%+ and very well might require additional Simple Actions to reestablish, depending on the circumstance.  A human taking cover in a fairly deep doorway from corp sec down the hall might qualify for this bonus, but may also need to spend a Simple Action to duck back into the doorway after firing.  Obviously, if you're getting this bonus because you're prone, you don't need to reestablish it.

Weird rules note that I mentioned in the errata thread: If you take Partial Cover behind soft cover (so no barrier rating to speak of), you are actually easier to hit than if you took no cover at all.  For some strange reason, cover negates the "ties go to the defender" rule, which means attackers need one fewer net success to hit you.

You forgot total cover, which is about 100% of the body being obscured.  Like Michael Chandra and Top Dog said, we think the firing blind/using a camera refers to that. 

[Michael Chandra]

I don't think Total Cover involves the Take Cover action generally, since it'd apply when you hide behind a wall completely, without sticking out.