[ReznorX]

Greetings All,

So I am about to start gathering players for my 1st ever SR tabletop campaign.  I have a few questions but first, I'll try and give a basic background that may [hopefully] assist your answers.

I've been DM'ing D&D, Vampire: TM, and Star Wars for over 20yrs now.  Most of my experience leans towards D&D - and I've handled AD&D through its current iterations.  V:TM and Star Wars were both back about a decade ago.

My players will all be new to the SR universe, but they all have backgrounds in tabletop gaming.  Most have D&D or Pathfinder experience, and half have more than 10yrs of playing under their belt.

So, to the questions!

1) I am really struggling on whether to buy SR 20th Anniversary or SR 5th Edition.  It seems like it would be beneficial to get 5th for the streamlined mechanics and rule-fixes; however, 20th Anniversary seems like -- after about 5 months of playing -- it'll give us more options/flavor/ability to really "dig deep" with content.  Are my assumptions accurate?  Whether it be sheer personal opinion or if you've tested both editions; I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on this one -- since it'll make the most difference.

2) Mechanics -> How "friendly" is SR [either edition] to tweaking rules and equipment to balance things that seem OP; or even to just add to the catalog of items?  Is it something that's generally frowned upon [ie: everyone generally agrees that the mechanics are fair just as they are] or are the books set up to expand upon them and tinker around with?

3) I have read that the books assume a party of 6.  Are there specific calculations presented when designing challenges for less/more people?  Or is it more of a free-for-all when it comes to modifying encounters?

Thank you all - any and all who post responses.  I can't wait to expand my tabletop love to Shadowrun and any assistance getting this off the ground is greatly appreciated.

[Medicineman]

Hello ResnorX and welcome to the Wonderful World of Shadowrun
I'm playing RPGs for 30 Years now and SR for about 15 Years (Started with SR2)
my personal favorite is SR4A.
If You compare the Rules of 4A and 5 they're very much alike, but SR5 is more limiting to the players decisions (like you can only Attack once per Actionphase in SR5 but you had many more options in SR4A  ) and also more Limitations mechanically (like Attribute Limits or Item Limits like Accuracy with guns )
some of the Rules in SR5 make no sense (ImO ! f.E. a laserpointer that has to have Access to the Matrix to give You its full Bonus or Throwing Knives that hit better if they're wiFi online ) there are one or two Rules that are an improvement to SR4A ( f.E.  Skills go up to 12 instead of only up to 6) bat generally they're inferiour to the SR4A Rules(imO).
Also one point to consider :
If You choose SR4A you already have all the additional Rulebooks You need ( for Aspekts like Fighting, Magic,Matrix,etc   ) whereas If you would opt for SR5 You have to wait for further Books .
F.E if You don't like the Priority char building system from the BBB ( a lot of Gamers ,including me, don't like that very much) to create a Character, You have to wait for the Compendium with a much fairer Karma Building system.
 
@Mechanics
SR4A has a lot of additional Rulebooks so its way more adaptive and Player Friendly than SR5
You ,as a GM, can use and twist the Rules much more easily in SR4A than in SR5 partially because SR4A has more rules but mainly because most Rules (especially Combat Rules) are better. You have way more  Fighting Options in SR4A  and I'm not only talking of Additional Rules like Martial Arts that You already have in 4A but have to wait for in 5the Ed. I'm comparing BBB 4A to BBB 5th.
@party Strength
hmmmm,well SR is (ImO ) a different kind of RPG than D&D (which I'm playing for 25+ Years if You include AD%D for 30 Years  ) D&D Tries to Balance Encounters with the Party Strength (especially the dreaded 4the Ed) which has its Advantages but also Disadvantages (You have to ....Bend/Warp the World to the Player Chars. )
Shadowrun tries to be different which is a good intention.Shadowrun is more complex ingame than D&D and it needs more attention from GM and Players alike  .

He who dances for a long Time
Medicineman

[Beaumis]

Welcome to Shadowrun.

Regarding your first question, if your group has zero Shadowrun experience, I would strongly suggest going with 5th edition simply because it cuts down on the reading material and confusion. 4th Edition ran for eight years and while the churn is not as bad as DnD, its still a lot of material. New books will come out and you have enough material with 5th Edition to keep you going for quite a long time.

Shadowrun is pretty crunch heavy and for starters I wouldn't advice any house rules. Despite what these forums seem to suggest, its pretty well balanced and requires little additions. Said being said, minor changes can be minor or huge depending on the situation, as in any rule-set. But as long as the changes apply to everyone in the game world, there is very little that can go horribly wrong unless your changes only apply to one player. (Like changing the way magic works with only one mage in the party).
If you are planning to play mission, house rules are frowned upon. Otherwise, it's your game, don't worry about what other people think.

A piece of advice though, Shadowrun's biggest balancing factor lies in the fluff. By RAW, there is nothing stopping your players to run around in full body armor wielding assault cannons. (If they can get their hands on them) In the game world, there are damn good reasons not to do so because people seeing them will preemptively call heavy security and attack. The most important thing to remember is that this game is about living in the fringes of society, blending into the mass to avoid the eyes of the man. Unleashing multiple high force spirits at once, using heavy weaponry and killing everything that moves including the innocent civilian's poodle will bring down the big guns.
When played "right", the players paranoia to attract attention will keep them in line. If the setting is not conveyed right, they will try to play it like an 80's action movie. (Which is kinda fine too, just remember your goons can have assault cannons too in that case.)

Concerning your third question, there are no hard rules as there are in DnD. Taking out a few goons for a smaller party is a good idea, usually starting with magical ones beyond the first. Due to it's free form advancement nature, Shadowrun is a lot harder to balance than more linear systems like DnD, but with a bit of experimentation that shouldn't be a problem. Just let your players know your unfamiliar with the mechanics and feel free to fudge a few rolls in the beginning if you feel your calculations were off. Shadowrun can be pretty deadly and since it has no Resurrection mechanics, death is permanent. Keep that in mind.

Oh, and stay away from grenades for a bit. They make players go splat.

[Medicineman]

4th Edition ran for eight years and while the churn is not as bad as DnD, its still a lot of material. New books will come out and you have enough material with 5th Edition to keep you going for quite a long time.

I bet there will be (in Future) even more material for SR5 so "the confusion" will be even higher
and I gues a GM thats been doing RPG for Years and decades won't be confused easily

Shadowrun is pretty crunch heavy and for starters I wouldn't advice any house rules.

Neither would I, but I think that SR5 needs lots of Houserules to be enjoyable. One more reason to go for SR4A

If you are planning to play mission, house rules are frowned upon.

Yes You're totally right. I forgot about Missions as they're quite unknown in Germany

The most important thing to remember is that this game is about living in the fringes of society, blending into the mass to avoid the eyes of the man.

It can be this way, but like D&D is not only about Dungeon bashing, SR is not only about being a LowLife Punk living in the Fringe of Society

Oh, and stay away from grenades for a bit. They make players go splat.

Especially in SR5, right.There's also a lot of misunderstanding about the Crunch of grenade throwing and evading

with a straight Dance
Medicineman

[Efe]

Hello ReznorX,
I've DM'd D&D for nearly 10 years, and played Shadowrun 4th and 5th for a couple of months now. I think I would use 4th edition if I were you. But my main reason for that is that it would be better to wait for the 5th edition version with errata. Especially if you are used to D&D's nicely edited books. The Shadowrun 5th edition book right now is quite a change from that, and quite annoying sometimes. Furthermore, I really want to have additional rulebooks for my 5th edition character, because she doesn't have many options right now. On the other hand, as Beaumis said, one rulebook is plenty of reading material, and it is easier to start without all the extra's, and you can play very well withouth all the extra's. And 5th edition has it perks too: For example, I prefer its initiative system. In 4th, the differences were too big, and combat was quite boring for both the one with very few initiative passes, who was just waiting till the others finally were done and the one with a lot of initiative passes, who had multiple actions left over when the others were done and didn't want to bore the other ones with those. However, we incorporated the 5th ed iniative system in 4th ed and it works just fine.
I also like the priority system for building characters, but not everyone agrees on that. I don't mind the limits of 5th ed. much, they rarely seem to come up in play. 

I have only GM'd Shadowrun once, and that was a mission, so little tweaking was allowed. However, I seem to remember that one of the books specifically says that if your player wants to, adapting gear was oke. I can't find it, however, so I might not remember it correctly.   

Game balance is different compared to D&D. It is more a question of giving everyone a time to shine. So you have to give the hacker something to hack, the face someone to talk to, etc. Therefore, I prefer to have a small group of players, so there is more time for everyone. In a fight, it is quite easy to tweak your NPC's if they are too weak or too strong, you can change the dicepool on the fly. I think there are some suggestions for that in the book, or in missions also, but I'll leave those for someone who has actually used them.

Further warnings  ) :
Bring all your d6's.
Int does not stand for Intelligence.
And yes, you roll once for attack which includes damage, and once for defending.

 

[Beaumis]

I bet there will be (in Future) even more material for SR5 so "the confusion" will be even higher and I gues a GM thats been doing RPG for Years and decades won't be confused easily

There is a vast difference between adding content one book at a time so your game grows steadily more complex and starting out with 20+ books to crunch through. No amount of experience makes you read all those books faster.

It can be this way, but like D&D is not only about Dungeon bashing, SR is not only about being a LowLife Punk living in the Fringe of Society

You misunderstood me. I didn't mean playing low life punks, I meant playing SINles Shadowrunners that are, at the end of the day, wanted criminals. As a SINles individual, your very existence is illegal. Cops don't care about due process when the accused doesn't exist legaly. No court will give you the benefit of the doubt unless you have a superb lawyer, most of which don't *want* to be employed by you because its bad for their reputation. Even a simple thing such as a speeding stop can land you in big trouble if the cop decides to be extra vigilant about your SIN check and your fake sin isn't up to snuff. The last thing a runner wants is to encourage society to *be* vigilant about him. Displaying heavy duty gear openly or having it noticed will cause exactly that.

As for character options, while its nice to play meta variants and all that, the ones that aren't easily done fluff wise are also the ones that change table balance pretty heavily and kind of need an experienced GM to ensure one player doesn't outshine the others.

Efe raises a very important point though, character generation. 4th edition has a pretty clunky char gen that can lead to vast power disparities between players, based on their choices at char gen. This disparity is still in existence in SR5, but nowhere near as bad as it was. (Karma char gen in Runner's Companion sort of fixed that issue though.)

There's another simple reason to use 5th and that's support. 4th edition is over and done and eventually support will cease. Sooner or later, your players will want to play the current edition and that will mean a lot of changes. If I were you, I'd save myself the trouble and start fresh with 5th.

[Medicineman]

(Karma char gen in Runner's Companion sort of fixed that issue though.)

I too, consider Karma Generation as best because its fairest (and Easy tio use you have the same Rules for Char Generartion as well as Char developement. Point Build as the second best as it gives the same amount of Freedom for Char Creation but also a little ...incentive to Min/Maxing and Priority system the least favorable (thoug the SR5 Prio System is better than the one of SR3 ) because its most restricted. And if anybody tells You the Prio System is faster than otehr Char Creations  , thats what is really time consuming (choosing Equipment, Cyberware, Spells or Adept Power) is completely independant from the System so it matters Few if a Char needs 60 Minutes to create or 50 Minutes (as an example)

HokaHey
medicineman

[Belker]

Welcome to Shadowrun! I've been playing and running various versions of SR since 1990, and gaming for even longer (Jerry Ford was in the White House when I started). I've lost track of the number of game systems I've run and played in over the years. Here's my 2 nuyen:

- Go with 5th edition. The mechanics are (overall) much cleaner, and the Matrix overhaul has led to the best version of hacking/decking yet.

- Start out running with the rules as written. Until you really get to see how things work in play, you really won't be able to accurately assess what's potentially overpowered versus what isn't. I think you'll find adding equipment is fairly easy once you get a little experience, and you'll have 20 years of material to mine for things that haven't been converted yet.

- Groups will want to cover these major areas: combat (close & ranged), hacking, magic, and interpersonal actions (the "Face" role). Transport and drone support are probably the next big two supporting areas. But there are a lot of ways to cover these bases and it's really hard to say just what will challenge a given group.

Also, if you & your group aren't used to modern-era or SF games with fairly deadly combat, you may want to keep the first few encounters toned down while you get acclimated. A single ganger with a shotgun can actually do a fair bit of damage to a starting character.

You may also need to adjust the collective mindset a bit. Shadowrun is very much NOT a "kill the bad guys, take their stuff" kind of game, which is the mindset at the heart of D&D.

I suggest you start out with Splintered States, the first SR5 adventure. It's designed for starting groups and will give you all a good introduction to the world and the system.

Have fun! Shoot straight, conserve your ammo, and never deal with a dragon!

[Agonar]

Let me join in Welcoming you to Shadowrun!

I Have been gaming for over 20 years, have played various incarnations of Shadowrun since 1st edition, as well as numerous other game systems.

Having recently started a campaign with players that have pretty much only played D&D (some for only a few years, some for many years), be prepared to try to shift the mentality.  Some of your players may want to be the "heroes" and have trouble with some of the things that Runners do.  They might also treat their runs as Storming the Tomb of Horrors.. go in, guns blazing, kill every enemy in sight, and loot every last valuable thing they can find.  Impress upon them the need to be stealthy, get in and out with no fuss, leaving few trails behind, and not having the luxury to stop and rifle through the pockets of every downed foe.

As to your questions.

1) I would advise starting with SR5.  It has the benefit of streamlined rules, and only a single Core rulebook at the moment.  It's easier for your players to digest and get used to, and you can slowly add content as new books are released, and you have a chance to pick them up and decide if you want to use them.  Yes, some express that SR5 is too limiting.   Yes, PCs have limits built in, on how many Hits they can keep.  This helps to prevent the one trick ponies.  There is not as much reason for someone to try to focus on getting a single skill, say Pistols, to a 20+ dice pool, if they can only keep 6 or 7 Hits.  Spread out and dabble in other things.  But, on the other hand, every PC has way to ignore those limits as well.

Yes, there are some confusing bits that could benefit with some errata.  But you say you've been gaming for over 20 years now.  This book is no worse than any other game book from back in the 90's, and most situations that come up can easily be adjudicated o the spot.

2)  While I would also agree that you should start with no (or very little) houserules, SR is very friendly, mechanics-wise to tweak  Once you are familiar with the Core rule book, it is fairly easy to grab one of the SR4 books and import individual pieces of gear, to hold you over until the new versions are available.  Say they are offered a job where they need some really big firepower.  You can tweak their weapons.  Maybe Mr. Johnson offers them an Assault Cannon that does 2 less damage, or has a lower accuracy, less AP value, whatever.  I gave my group a van as part of their payment.  It was beat up, so I reduced both the Body and Armor by 30%.

Also, because Sniper Rifles tend to be just as mobile as a pistol in a running gun battle, and far more powerful, my group has been been asking for a change.  I think we are going to reduce the accuracy on all Sniper Rifles, so that without any prep, you can't keep that many Hits, but if you take the time to set it up, take some Take Aim actions, you can once again boost the Accuracy up to make it a weapon to be feared.  So yes, weasy to tweak, but play it as-is for a while first.

3)  As it is with tweaking the rules, It is also easy to adjust on the fly to account for more or less PCs in a group.  If you have a villain that is supposed to be challenging, yet beatable, and the group is just having no luck, or is smaller than average size, you can just start rolling fewer dice, or reduce their Condition Monitor by a few.  Or, if the villain is proving to be a pansy, or you have a larger than average group, then you can roll more dice, add another bad guy or two.


Also, it sounds like you are fairly new to Shadowrun as well.  If so, there are several podcasts out there that you may enjoy listening too.  All of these are free on iTunes, but some of them require you to visit their site to get all of the episodes.

Hiddengrid  http://www.hiddengrid.com/  This is an actual play podcast.  They start in the 2050's era, playing through many 1st/2nd edition adventure modules, converted for SR4.  In the more recent episodes, they made the switch to SR5, so if you listen to them all, you can note the differences between the systems

Neo Anarchist Podcast  http://neo-anarchist.podomatic.com/  Opti (the host) presents the history of Shadowrun in a fun to listen to format, givng you the down low on why things are they way they are, and certain key events that happened in the past.

Arcology Podcast   http://arcologypodcast.com/  This podcast presents information and reviews about some Shadowrun Returns missions, as well as information about being a Runner.  They did a 4=part Anatomy of a Run, where they give advice on how to handle The Meet, some of what you should be doing for Legwork, the different styles of the Run.. whether you should leave survivors or not.  And how to help keep Mr. Johnson from fragging you over when it is time to get paid.  They also started a 6 part series on different archtypes.  Where, if you are playing a Street Samurai, or a Rigger, what you should think about when building your character, skills, attributes, gear, play styles, etc.  It is very informative.

Critical Glitch  http://criticalglitch.com/  If you want to know about Missions, this is the place.  Run by two members of the Catalyst Demo Team, they discuss missions, convention gaming, they do interviews with some of the writers and developers at Catalyst.  This is also an entertaining listen, and you might get some ideas from what they discuss their players doing at various games...  physical adepts engaging a helicopter in Melee, for example...

Good luck Chummer, and welcome to the shadows.

[Medicineman]

1) I would advise starting with SR5.  It has the benefit of streamlined rules,

?
Sorry but SR5 has the same Streamlined Rules as SR4A
quite Conrtrary SR4A has more streamlined rules.
F.E. the Karma in SR4A is always the same , the KArma in SR5 Priority System is worth 2x the Karma in Char developement....

and only a single Core rulebook at the moment.

thats true, but If they have such inconsistent Rules in the BBB ( Karma is 2x Karma  ) what will appear in the following Rulebooks ?

It's easier for your players to digest and get used to,

The Basic Rules of SR4A and SR5 are basically the same and please don't underestimate younger Players.
They often get the Rules very easily (if the Game keeps them fascinated and interesting) often more easily than older ,more experienced Players !

Yes, some express that SR5 is too limiting.   Yes, PCs have limits built in, on how many Hits they can keep.  This helps to prevent the one trick ponies.

You're right, The Rules help prevent a one-trick-pony, but a GM is also able to prevent this
otoh the Rules prevent to make Awesome Chars .....

There is not as much reason for someone to try to focus on getting a single skill, say Pistols, to a 20+ dice pool, if they can only keep 6 or 7 Hits.  ....  But, on the other hand, every PC has way to ignore those limits as well.

 

This book is no worse than any other game book from back in the 90's, and most situations that come up can easily be adjudicated o the spot.

I would even say the Book is better than a lot of the 90's books
but what You say is true (even more true) for SR4A

 

While I would also agree that you should start with no (or very little) houserules, SR is very friendly, mechanics-wise to tweak 

Thats right but also true for SR4A .The "sad Part" is (ImO) You need Houserules in SR5 to play it
(The two main Issues are " the WiFi Bonus " (including Bricking) and "You can only Attack once per Phase"  (including the Multiattack Issue))

Once you are familiar with the Core rule book, it is fairly easy to grab one of the SR4 books and import individual pieces of gear, to hold you over until the new versions are available.

So You're suggesting:
Go get the SR5 Rules and once You know them transfer/convert SR4A items& Rules into SR5 ?
 Well, why not : Go get the SR4A and once You know them expand them  ? This seems easier to Me !!   

with an easy Dance
Medicineman

[Agonar]

1) I would advise starting with SR5.  It has the benefit of streamlined rules,

?
Sorry but SR5 has the same Streamlined Rules as SR4A
quite Conrtrary SR4A has more streamlined rules.
F.E. the Karma in SR4A is always the same , the KArma in SR5 Priority System is worth 2x the Karma in Char developement....

and only a single Core rulebook at the moment.

thats true, but If they have such inconsistent Rules in the BBB ( Karma is 2x Karma  ) what will appear in the following Rulebooks ?

I'm sorry.. Karma is 2x Karma?   If you are talking about the price of buying Positive Qualities after creation, or buying off Negative Qualities..  in SR4a, they cost 2x the BP cost in Karma. 

If you are talking about something else, please explain.  Because I have no idea what you mean by saying Karma is 2x Karma

Everything else uses the same costs for karma whether it's at creation or after., Raising an Attribute after you have spent all of the allotted points from your Priority costs 5x the new rank, regardless of whether you do it at Creation, or after the game starts.   Raising an Active skill is 2x new rank.  etc.

It's easier for your players to digest and get used to,

The Basic Rules of SR4A and SR5 are basically the same and please don't underestimate younger Players.
They often get the Rules very easily (if the Game keeps them fascinated and interesting) often more easily than older ,more experienced Players !

I speak from my experience with the game I started.  I showed them both the SR4a and SR5 books, and they all found SR5 to be better.  Of the 5 players, 3 couldn't stand the BP system.  So, I am not underestimating anyone, I am offering my opinion and advice to answer a question based on experience.

Yes, some express that SR5 is too limiting.   Yes, PCs have limits built in, on how many Hits they can keep.  This helps to prevent the one trick ponies.

You're right, The Rules help prevent a one-trick-pony, but a GM is also able to prevent this
otoh the Rules prevent to make Awesome Chars .....

I disagree.  Been running SR5 for 2 separate groups now since the PDF was released, and I have seen some very awesome characters at Creation.  I guess it depends on definition of "awesome"

There is not as much reason for someone to try to focus on getting a single skill, say Pistols, to a 20+ dice pool, if they can only keep 6 or 7 Hits.  ....  But, on the other hand, every PC has way to ignore those limits as well.

 

This book is no worse than any other game book from back in the 90's, and most situations that come up can easily be adjudicated o the spot.

I would even say the Book is better than a lot of the 90's books
but what You say is true (even more true) for SR4A

I am not saying SR4a is not.  My advice is for SR5 though.  Another point in this favor is a single book for $60, or a single PDF for $20 vs . .   probably several hundreds to fully get into everything SR4a has to offer.  If you are going to buy books at a fairly slow rate anyway, might as well start with the new ones.

While I would also agree that you should start with no (or very little) houserules, SR is very friendly, mechanics-wise to tweak 

Thats right but also true for SR4A .The "sad Part" is (ImO) You need Houserules in SR5 to play it
(The two main Issues are " the WiFi Bonus " (including Bricking) and "You can only Attack once per Phase"  (including the Multiattack Issue))

As I said previous, I have been running for 2 groups now since the PDF came out, and we need no houserules to cover wireless bonuses or attacking once, or multi attacks.  Everything works as is.  After listening to some of the SR4 podcasts, some of my players have expressed that they like SR5 better, because attacking twice in a Phase seemed a bit too much.. but again, everyone has their own opinion about that

Once you are familiar with the Core rule book, it is fairly easy to grab one of the SR4 books and import individual pieces of gear, to hold you over until the new versions are available.

So You're suggesting:
Go get the SR5 Rules and once You know them transfer/convert SR4A items& Rules into SR5 ?
 Well, why not : Go get the SR4A and once You know them expand them  ? This seems easier to Me !!   

with an easy Dance
Medicineman

It may sound superior to you.  I've read through the rules of 4e, and for me and my group, it's not. 

Initiative - we prefer SR5
Creation - we prefer the Priority of SR5 rather than build points
Matrix - we prefer SR5
Rigging - we prefer SR5
Wireless Bonuses - my group loves them, and having to weigh the options of when to risk hacking and go wireless, or when to turn them off and lose their bonuses.

The only parts of SR4 my group really likes, are the stuff that's not out yet in SR5... laser weapons presented in Arsenal, Spirits and Metamagic and other magic options from Street Magic.

Until the SR5 versions of those books are out, I will tweak SR4 for my purpose, because I already own the PDFs, and I don't have to decide on whether I want to buy material from SR4 or 5

I actually own most of the SR2 and SR3 stuff as well, and if not for SR5, I would have gone with SR3.  SR4 may be the right system for some, but not for me, and so between the two most recent, I point people towards SR5

[ReznorX]

I wanted to thank everyone for their opinions and experiences.  It's greatly helped me decide on my process of going forward.

[baronspam]

All of what follows is IMHO-

1-Between 4th and 5th edition, its a tough call.  It depends on what you want.  4th edition uses a build point system to create characters.  It is very flexible, which is fun, but there is not much in the way of forced balance.  Unless the GM takes an active hand in character creation, or at least provides some specific expectations about power levels, you can end up with character of vastly different power levels.  The priority system in 5th is still fairly flexible, but it is harder to break a character, or to completely over-cheese them.

2- There is a huge amount of published material for 4th, both crunch and fluff.  Not only is it friendly to house rules and modification, its almost required.  Some rules require GM clarification, and many GMs limit or eliminate specific gear or options.  Its practically obligatory to have a house rules document a 4th ed campaign.

At this point 5th ed is just the core rule book.  You could always house rule a specific point if you want to, but I think 5th is more "ready to play". 

3-Balancing encounters can be tricky in SR, as character combat effectiveness can vary greatly.  Also, there is often more than one way to solve a problem.  Sometimes you do have to go in shooting, but often trickery, stealth, and subterfuge can save you a running fight.  Its something you will just have to feel your way through.