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Some basic magic questions

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Oski

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« on: <12-07-13/1909:16> »
I recently finished reading the magic chapter, and have just a few questions at this time about the rules.

1. The Adept Improved Ability power, can this take skill values past 12?  If a character with a natural skill value of 12 uses this power, can he/she effectively bump the skill value to 18?

2. Astral Perception/Projection, it seems to me that the predominant use of this is going to be surveillance, exploration, and searching.  It seems to have pretty limited combat applications.  I could see as a GM placing specific hidden objects that leave astral signatures, or even have NPCs hidden in astral projection that would only be detected either by a magician or an astral detection test.  I could also see a magician astrally projecting to scope out an area before the part infiltrates it.  Are there any basic or obvious applications of Astral Perception/Projection that I'm missing?  I was initially expecting it to be sorta a "Matrix for magicians" thing, but it seems simpler than that (which is nice if true I think, because the rules are already complex enough!)

3. Magic weapons, the orc on the cover, Sledge, as also described in the opening short story, is carrying a blue-glowing sword.  I assume it to be magic.  But the only magic weapon rules I read in the Magic chapter were about foci, and they can only be wielded by the Awakened to whom they are bonded.  Sledge is not awakened.  So is his sword magic?  If yes, where are the rules on that?  If not, why is his sword glowing?

Thanks.

Dracain

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« Reply #1 on: <12-07-13/2024:15> »
I recently finished reading the magic chapter, and have just a few questions at this time about the rules.

1. The Adept Improved Ability power, can this take skill values past 12?  If a character with a natural skill value of 12 uses this power, can he/she effectively bump the skill value to 18?

2. Astral Perception/Projection, it seems to me that the predominant use of this is going to be surveillance, exploration, and searching.  It seems to have pretty limited combat applications.  I could see as a GM placing specific hidden objects that leave astral signatures, or even have NPCs hidden in astral projection that would only be detected either by a magician or an astral detection test.  I could also see a magician astrally projecting to scope out an area before the part infiltrates it.  Are there any basic or obvious applications of Astral Perception/Projection that I'm missing?  I was initially expecting it to be sorta a "Matrix for magicians" thing, but it seems simpler than that (which is nice if true I think, because the rules are already complex enough!)

3. Magic weapons, the orc on the cover, Sledge, as also described in the opening short story, is carrying a blue-glowing sword.  I assume it to be magic.  But the only magic weapon rules I read in the Magic chapter were about foci, and they can only be wielded by the Awakened to whom they are bonded.  Sledge is not awakened.  So is his sword magic?  If yes, where are the rules on that?  If not, why is his sword glowing?

Thanks.
1.  RAW there is no problem for it.  RAI may be a different story, but that's up to the GM
2.  That seems about right for the most part.  Keep in mind that corps do have astral security, including plants that function as astral walls, barriers, and patrolling Mages and spirits. 
3.  The sword is glowing as an AR effect, not magic.  In the unlikely chance a person without AR looked at it, all they would see is a sword. 

Oski

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« Reply #2 on: <12-07-13/2030:13> »
Thanks kindly for the answers Dracain!  So no magic weapons in Shadowrun (except foci, obviously)?  Were there magic weapons in previous editions?

Dracain

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« Reply #3 on: <12-07-13/2043:13> »
Thanks kindly for the answers Dracain!  So no magic weapons in Shadowrun (except foci, obviously)?  Were there magic weapons in previous editions?
Nope, unless I'm forgetting something.  Magic weapons aren't so much weapons with magic, as they are weapons that use/shape the magic of the wielder. 

RHat

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« Reply #4 on: <12-07-13/2044:04> »
Thanks kindly for the answers Dracain!  So no magic weapons in Shadowrun (except foci, obviously)?  Were there magic weapons in previous editions?

No; the idea that magic doesn't work for mundanes is actually a central underpinning of what magic is in Shadowrun.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #5 on: <12-07-13/2047:03> »
1. The Adept Improved Ability power, can this take skill values past 12?  If a character with a natural skill value of 12 uses this power, can he/she effectively bump the skill value to 18?

Yes.

2. Astral Perception/Projection, it seems to me that the predominant use of this is going to be surveillance, exploration, and searching.  It seems to have pretty limited combat applications.  I could see as a GM placing specific hidden objects that leave astral signatures, or even have NPCs hidden in astral projection that would only be detected either by a magician or an astral detection test.  I could also see a magician astrally projecting to scope out an area before the part infiltrates it.  Are there any basic or obvious applications of Astral Perception/Projection that I'm missing?  I was initially expecting it to be sorta a "Matrix for magicians" thing, but it seems simpler than that (which is nice if true I think, because the rules are already complex enough!)

For combat purposes it is limited, but not everything has to be useful in terms of combat and not all characters should necessarily be good in combat.

Astral Projection, is a powerful ability despite the pooh-pooh-ing about it you may see here on the boards (notably in the threads dealing with the Mystic Adept).

3. Magic weapons, the orc on the cover, Sledge, as also described in the opening short story, is carrying a blue-glowing sword.  I assume it to be magic.  But the only magic weapon rules I read in the Magic chapter were about foci, and they can only be wielded by the Awakened to whom they are bonded.  Sledge is not awakened.  So is his sword magic?  If yes, where are the rules on that?  If not, why is his sword glowing?

The sword could very well be a weapon focus, which is the closest one comes to getting a "magic weapon" in SR.
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Oski

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« Reply #6 on: <12-07-13/2101:14> »
Thanks kindly for the answers Dracain!  So no magic weapons in Shadowrun (except foci, obviously)?  Were there magic weapons in previous editions?

No; the idea that magic doesn't work for mundanes is actually a central underpinning of what magic is in Shadowrun.

Thanks for the elaboration, I hadn't thought of it that way.  I guess though, in my mind, you can cast various types of spells to affect mundanes, including sustained spells like Armor, Increase Reflexes, and Increase Attribute.  You can also imbue at least temporary magic powers to objects through alchemy.  I hadn't really thought through the possibilities with alchemy, since I figured there would be some option for magic weapons.  Is it possible to use alchemy to create on-touch effects on just the blade part of a weapon (thus allowing the wielder to hold it by the handle and not trigger the effect) or the bullets already in a gun?  I'm guessing that I'm probably trying to fit a round peg into a square hole here, and apologize.  I'm fairly new to Shadowrun (played a little of it decades ago after the SNES and Genesis versions made everyone love it, but that's all) and trying to get as full an understanding of the rules and setting as possible.  Thanks for the patience and answers.

Oski

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« Reply #7 on: <12-07-13/2105:44> »
For combat purposes it is limited, but not everything has to be useful in terms of combat and not all characters should necessarily be good in combat.

Thanks for the answers All4BigGuns.  I definitely agree with you that not everything needs to be useful for combat.  I'm creating a campaign right now for my group, and I am working to put in uses (and backup uses) for as many skills, abilities, and powers as possible, so that the group benefits from having as many options available that they can.  I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't overlooking anything as I work out the various in-game situations where Arcane Perception/Projection will be useful.  Surveillance will be key for most missions, so it will play a role in that.  And I do plan on hiding things either in the astral plane, or in the material plane but with auras that can be seen astrally.

Dracain

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« Reply #8 on: <12-08-13/0026:03> »
The sword could very well be a weapon focus, which is the closest one comes to getting a "magic weapon" in SR.
We know the weapon isn't magical because the picture is based on a short story in the book. 

Beaumis

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« Reply #9 on: <12-08-13/0116:01> »
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2. Astral Perception/Projection, it seems to me that the predominant use of this is going to be surveillance, exploration, and searching.  It seems to have pretty limited combat applications.  I could see as a GM placing specific hidden objects that leave astral signatures, or even have NPCs hidden in astral projection that would only be detected either by a magician or an astral detection test.  I could also see a magician astrally projecting to scope out an area before the part infiltrates it.  Are there any basic or obvious applications of Astral Perception/Projection that I'm missing?  I was initially expecting it to be sorta a "Matrix for magicians" thing, but it seems simpler than that (which is nice if true I think, because the rules are already complex enough!)
Im going to have to strongly disagree with your assessment  here. Recon is a primary use of astral perception/ projection, that much is true, but that's only the tip of the iceberg.

Astral perception is a sense that provides a magician with *sight* (for ease of argument) in each and any situation (except high background count areas) that can and will cancel out any physical sight modifiers in order to establish LoS for your spells. Whenever vision modifiers apply, astral perception will cancel them out at the cost of making you dual-natured for the time. Whenever sight modifiers go beyond -2 for a physical action, astral perception caps you at -2. (Again, background count factors in too.)

Furthermore, Astral Projection allow you to combat things directly on the astral plane, which circumvents a lot of physical abilities of magical beings, most importantly the invulnerability to normal weapons. There is very little armor of the astral plane, so a magician can circumvent high armor values for dual-natured beings by attacking on the astral (not always a good idea, but possible). If the mage is projecting and his body is secure, dual-natured beings (DNB) are yours to kill with impunity because they are limited to a meat body and he isn't. The mage can sidestep through walls to break LoS, just keep his distance and move faster than any meat body ever will or simply fly high *above* the DNB and pelt it with spells. The same goes for active spells and foci, provided you have the skills to deal with them. It also allows you to react to magical events pretty much anywhere on the globe within minutes.

Astral Projection is also your Magical Phone none physical can listen in on (on your end) via Manifesting. This method of communication has no range limit and is utterly untraceable by physical means, while extremely hard to trace via magical ones. An often overlooked but powerful feature.

Once the rules for the metaplanes get published (working of the old editions here), Astral Projection will be your one stop access card to learning everything magic via astral quests.

The applications of Astral Projection and Perception may not be as obvious as the matrix ones, but they are no less powerful or simpler than the matrix is. The prime difference however, is that while every mundane uses technology and becomes vulnerable to the decker, magical activity is a little more exclusive. This is both a help and a hindrance. You can't brick people's guns, but its pretty unlikely that Joe Wageslave will have magical security to keep you from surveying him on the astral.

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3. Magic weapons, the orc on the cover, Sledge, as also described in the opening short story, is carrying a blue-glowing sword.  I assume it to be magic.  But the only magic weapon rules I read in the Magic chapter were about foci, and they can only be wielded by the Awakened to whom they are bonded.  Sledge is not awakened.  So is his sword magic?  If yes, where are the rules on that?  If not, why is his sword glowing?
I always figured it was supposed to be a monofilament blade. But then, this is Shadowrun. It could be an AR image.

Xenon

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« Reply #10 on: <12-08-13/0352:02> »
Projection was evil back when you could ground spells.

There are still a lot of "tricks" you can do with projection though.
It is still a very very powerful ability in the hands of a creative player.

Oski

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« Reply #11 on: <12-08-13/0955:17> »
Thanks for the added replies.  I really appreciated the strategic pointers for using Astral Perception/Projection Beaumis!

And yeah, I went back and read the short story again.  I had previously been assuming the sword was magic, but it states in the story that it's monofilament.  So that's the reason for the glow.

Imveros

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« Reply #12 on: <12-08-13/2258:55> »
Thanks kindly for the answers Dracain!  So no magic weapons in Shadowrun (except foci, obviously)?  Were there magic weapons in previous editions?

No; the idea that magic doesn't work for mundanes is actually a central underpinning of what magic is in Shadowrun.

Yeah but Big D wants that to change!

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Beaumis

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« Reply #13 on: <12-09-13/0021:17> »
Im going to put this one in spoilers as it contains old edition lore that is not really supposed to be general knowledge among the player population. I don't know if this particular story thread is ever going to be picked up again, but read it at your own risk.

That quote is an artifact from the old Earthdawn/ Shadowrun crossover times. Dunkelzahn was around in the last age, albeit under a different name, and knows that once the mana level rises sufficiently, magic can form patterns and become self sustaining. He hoped that research might actually speed up humanities's understanding of magic, including but not limited to the creation of patterns.
There is much more to it, but I won't post it here as it would take way too long and possibly spoil way too much. The gist of it is, D knew that a threat is coming that can easily wipe out humanity and he wants the world to prepare.
For those interested in the material, the old Earthdawn 1st edition books contain most of the history you need to understand why research into patterns and matrices would be important to Dunkelzahn.

RHat

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« Reply #14 on: <12-09-13/0113:11> »
...  Dude, the Horrors aren't a spoiler.

Really, the whole idea of "not supposed to be known to the player population" doesn't really work, especially since for a lot of groups the GM role can switch around.
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