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Rescource Scarcity

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Gripper

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« on: <12-07-13/2218:32> »
I've been GM'ing a game the last few months, and ever once in a while I'll drop in details about the scarcity of objects readily available to us 2013'ers. For instance, meat, while not impossible to find, is sold at a premium due to its rarity.

In last weeks game, one of  the players questioned the availability of whisky and paper. This got me thinking, and I'm not sure I'm running things right.

I'd like to classify the following items as either easy to find, sold at a premium, or impossible to find. Sources for the answers would be appreciated. If anyone else would like to add something to the list, I'll be happy to add it.

1) Meat
2) Paper
3) Alcohol from traditional sources (beer made with barley, whiskey made with rye, etc.) rather than soy substitutes

Thanks for the help!

Gripper

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« Reply #1 on: <12-07-13/2224:06> »
I should put the assumptions I've been working with in here as well

1) Meat: Sold at a premium
2) Paper: Sold at a premium. To reasons I think this to be the case. First off, there just isn't that much left, and with Amazonia going back to nature, logging rights are hard to come by (Anyone know what the former Russia's stance is on logging?) Secondly, everything is done by commlink's now, so there just isn't the demand for paper that there once was. I doubt most people write by hand.
3) Traditional Alcohol: As apposed to meat, there doesn't seem to be much advantage to using a soy/algae substitute. Meat needs time, room, and nuyen to grow, but rye/barley seems to be on par with the alternatives. I'd say these are easy to find and akin to today's beverages.
« Last Edit: <12-07-13/2230:10> by Gripper »

Critter

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« Reply #2 on: <12-07-13/2309:43> »
Why hello Gripper!  I'll try to give you how I see things.

Shadowrun has its origins in the 1980s cyberpunk literature movement. The idea back then was that technology and greed was sending the world on a downward spiral where the megacorporations were going to try to make themselves rich at the expense of everything else. People, the environment, etc. So there are some tropes involved with the genera. For example in Neuromancer they're traveling through Istanbul. One of the character says, "Do you see that? Its a horse man, you ever see a horse before???" The the Sprawl Trilogy setting horses went extinct due to a plague that wiped them out. My assumption would be some virus a corporation was working with that got loose, or used in their world war 3. So I will go about your assumptions and how, I at least, view the genera.

1) Meat: Sold at a premium

Ah real meat. Shoot, real food in general, that's the life. Most people eat soy based meals, or krill. Its cheap, its mass marketed and its what the corporations give to the masses. Real meat, for example takes a lot of work. You have to bio-engineer cows that are resistant to the various diseases, you want them to be lean, so they have very little fat. Then you need to feed them on specially engineered meal, because their system is just so precariously balanced that normal meal would kill them. Sure, you could use regular natural cows, but then you have to contend with mutations because of magic, polluted waters, toxins in the ground bleeding into their food supply. Really, its too risky and this stuff is meant for the social, and economic elites, better to go with something you can trust. Something made by one of one of your subsidiary companies.

2) Paper: Sold at a premium. To reasons I think this to be the case. First off, there just isn't that much left, and with Amazonia going back to nature, logging rights are hard to come by (Anyone know what the former Russia's stance is on logging?) Secondly, everything is done by commlink's now, so there just isn't the demand for paper that there once was. I doubt most people write by hand.

Paper, how retro! No one uses that stuff, for all the reasons you mentioned. Besides, that stuff sits around for a few years and it starts to go brown and crumbly. What you should be using is flimsyplas. Its like paper, only its made of a thin layer of plastic. You put a small block of that in your printer and it melts/etches it with whatever data you absolutely cannot send electronically. Really, get a comlink you luddite!
 
3) Traditional Alcohol: As apposed to meat, there doesn't seem to be much advantage to using a soy/algae substitute. Meat needs time, room, and nuyen to grow, but rye/barley seems to be on par with the alternatives. I'd say these are easy to find and akin to today's beverages.

No reason? Ha! Ever have a good Macallan 1946? Yeah me either, it sells for something like $460K a bottle. That's the thing. Its just whisky, I've got lots of empty bottles of whisky (don't ask) but mine goes for $30 a bottle. You control the production of the stuff, the world has given you near monopoly rights to it. You can charge whatever you want for it. If people ask why the real stuff costs so much, point to the damage that's been done to the environment due to your competition's careless treatment of the world. You can't just go out and plant potatoes anywhere. Sheesh just look at natural cows and how messed up those are! Don't get me started on the mutant banana I saw at a street vendor last week. But back to the subject of booze. You're not one of the social and financial elites, but you still want to live the good life. Well, we've got just the thing for you, synthohol. It tastes just like the real thing, we promise, in fact it packs three times the punch of the real deal. So really citizen UCAS-5048-1-M/37/NDA, why would you want to spend your money on that expensive junk, you can get the same taste, more of a kick to it at a fraction of the cost. Big Brother isn't just your friend, he's your drinking buddy.
There's always one PC who just can't go with the flow.  They have to have something that sets them apart.  Something blatantly obvious to everyone who plays with them.

Vidnaut

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« Reply #3 on: <12-08-13/0352:04> »
Well, paper comes with the printer.  It's vague about how many sheets come with but it's 25 nuyen for the disposable printer included.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #4 on: <12-08-13/0432:20> »
Meat is part of Lifestyle, by the way. A Middle Lifestyle eats real food half the time, a High Lifestyle all the time. So of that 10k, 2k goes partially towards real food+drinks, which puts it at max 60 nuyen a day. Divide by meals, subtract drinks, and we got what, 20 nuyen for a dinner including a real steak? A real meat decent meal in a restaurant will be anywhere between 100 and 200 nuyen.
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Beaumis

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« Reply #5 on: <12-08-13/1238:26> »
Quote
2) Paper: Sold at a premium. To reasons I think this to be the case. First off, there just isn't that much left, and with Amazonia going back to nature, logging rights are hard to come by (Anyone know what the former Russia's stance is on logging?) Secondly, everything is done by commlink's now, so there just isn't the demand for paper that there once was. I doubt most people write by hand.
Sorry but paper is not rare at all. Sheet paper to write on is outmoded, but paper is still widely used in many things like cigarettes, packaging, labels, toilette paper and such. There are still enough third world countries happy to sell logging rights and recycling has gotten a lot better too. Paper is just to important, cheap and flexible a material in too many products to simply vanish just because people don't write as much anymore.

Also, with growth acceleration methods having improved vastly over the past generation (just look at how fast they can grow bioware these days) logging isn't nearly as much a problem as it used to be. Magic might conceivably play a role here too. 

Critter

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« Reply #6 on: <12-08-13/1302:35> »
This is also a situation where fiction and genera take a divergent path than they would be were this a real life simulator game. Take something as simple as a latex mask. In the real world they wouldn't fool anyone within 5 feet or so, but in Shadowrun they work like the masks from the 80s Mission Impossible TV show.

Shadowrun, despite the efforts to make it transhumanist in more recent times started out as cyberpunk. So a lot of the "lore" is  from its origins, not its behind the scenes retcon.
There's always one PC who just can't go with the flow.  They have to have something that sets them apart.  Something blatantly obvious to everyone who plays with them.

farothel

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« Reply #7 on: <12-08-13/1312:58> »
They can probably make paper out of just about any plant fiber in Shadowrun.  So what do you do with all those soy bean plants after you have harvested the soy beans => turn them into paper.  As company you can even make more money by using a waste product and that's what counts, your bottom line.
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ZeConster

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« Reply #8 on: <12-08-13/1712:22> »
Like Vidnaut says, apparently the price of paper is so negligible it's not even mentioned: you get a "supply" with a 25¥ printer.

Critter

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« Reply #9 on: <12-08-13/1741:05> »
Like Vidnaut says, apparently the price of paper is so negligible it's not even mentioned: you get a "supply" with a 25¥ printer.

I think it was more a question of is it actually paper, or do people use real paper, not "can someone afford it" ;)
There's always one PC who just can't go with the flow.  They have to have something that sets them apart.  Something blatantly obvious to everyone who plays with them.

Vidnaut

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« Reply #10 on: <12-08-13/2033:14> »
Like Vidnaut says, apparently the price of paper is so negligible it's not even mentioned: you get a "supply" with a 25¥ printer.

I think it was more a question of is it actually paper, or do people use real paper, not "can someone afford it" ;)

Quote from:  SR5 pg. 439
Printer: In case you need something in hardcopy
(perhaps if Mr. Johnson hired you through a time portal),
this full-color printer comes attached to a paper supply.

Book says it's paper.  A better question would be: "Where do they get the cellulose fibers from to make the pulp?"

The tongue-in-cheek comment would probably lead me to believe the answer to the latter question would be, "Not very much."  Of course, a niche is still a niche.  Maybe the Azzies are using the wood they haven't burnt down in the Yucatan to turn into paper to sell in the Stuffer Shacks or one of their office supply subsidiaries?
« Last Edit: <12-08-13/2043:34> by Vidnaut »

ImaginalDisc

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« Reply #11 on: <12-10-13/0824:08> »
Trees for paper production are farmed. People don't go go about chopping down mixed hardwood tropical rainforests for pulp. That's mainly for timber and ground clearing for agriculture.

Would you want to process hugely inconsistent product, most of which is totally unsuitable for paper making, or would you rather handle lots of the same species of most suitable tree, all of the same age?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66-3v78oHtE

And

http://www.tappi.org/paperu/all_about_paper/earth_answers/EarthAnswers_GrowTree.pdf
« Last Edit: <12-10-13/0826:58> by ImaginalDisc »

Godwyn

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« Reply #12 on: <12-11-13/1513:56> »
Meat is part of Lifestyle, by the way. A Middle Lifestyle eats real food half the time, a High Lifestyle all the time. So of that 10k, 2k goes partially towards real food+drinks, which puts it at max 60 nuyen a day. Divide by meals, subtract drinks, and we got what, 20 nuyen for a dinner including a real steak? A real meat decent meal in a restaurant will be anywhere between 100 and 200 nuyen.

True it says real food half the time.  I would posit real food is not generally steak though.  In SR terms, even the drek in a fast food burger is real food, compared to what everyone else is eating.  It has 3 vegetable products, and real meat!  Our version of fast food is a luxury for the majority of the sixth world.

Though I believe the official word is that it is purposefully left vague a lot of the time, so that GM's have a lot of control over how scarce they want things to be.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #13 on: <12-11-13/1526:03> »
You have to remember, as well, that just because the Advanced Lifestyle Rules haven't been translated over doesn't mean that you can't 'degrade' one aspect to better another (it's just a "fluffy" decision without them). Perhaps your character doesn't go out as much, has cheaper furniture or got a good place in a not-so-good neighborhood and can afford to have those real veggies and real meat as a result.
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Vidnaut

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« Reply #14 on: <12-11-13/2013:41> »
You have to remember, as well, that just because the Advanced Lifestyle Rules haven't been translated over doesn't mean that you can't 'degrade' one aspect to better another (it's just a "fluffy" decision without them). Perhaps your character doesn't go out as much, has cheaper furniture or got a good place in a not-so-good neighborhood and can afford to have those real veggies and real meat as a result.

They may not be translated but the pricing for each "tier" of lifestyle still remains the same (0/500/2k/5k/10k/100k) so it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination to hack the meat/potatoes of those SR4 rules to SR5 compared to other examples of translation woes.