[Tangent]

I'm just starting to run Shadowrun and I'm a little confused about movement and when, exactly, it happens within the combat turn and how this timing affects things like modifiers to actions.

As a very simple example situation, let's say a character wants to fire a weapon and run in the same turn.  Running imposes a penalty to the action of firing the weapon, so is he able to fire the weapon first and then start running, avoiding the penalty?

My confusion arises from the part of the rulebook that says something about how when a movement mode is declared, the character is considered to be using that movement mode for the entire combat turn.

If the answer to the example question about is "yes," can the character then, next turn, stop running at the start of his turn, fire his gun, and then run again?

[Xenon]

it happen during your action phase (you can take all the movement in one single IP if you want)
not very realistic but it give us a a very fast system in combat.

if you ever reach "running" speed then you will keep that speed for the rest of the combat turn (and you have to waste your free action taking the running action action in every IP). you get a negative dice pool modifier on your ranged attacks for the remaining of the combat turn and people get a negative dice pool modifier to fire at you for the remaining of the combat turn.

but the actual movement is used in the IP you want to spend it.


example.
agility 5 human with 2 IP in a combat turn where the top dog have 3 IPs.

in his first action phase in IP#1 he declare that he move 8m
This is considered walking.

in his second action phase in IP#2 he declare that he move another 8m
He now moved 16m and is considered running from this point forward until the end of the combat turn.
He have to spend free action to run in each IP.

In IP3 he will have to spend his free action on running and cant do anything else.


in combat turn 2 he declare that he move 20m and spend a complex action taking a sprint test and manage to get 3 hits which give him another 6 meter. He spend both a free action on running and his complex action on sprinting. Can't fire his gun or anything else.

in the second IP in combat turn 2 he can't move anymore (except if he take another sprint test). He have to spend his free action on running and will be considered running but is free to use his complex action how he see fit.

In the third IP he spend his free action on running.

[Tangent]

I am now fully confused.

Bob has an initiative score of 16.  On Bob's first initiative pass, he gets either 2 simple actions or 1 complex action, plus he gets a free action, plus he can walk for no action.

(As an aside, I have always hated how characters get free actions but can walk for "free", but this isn't considered a "free action."  That's needlessly confusing.)

So, Bob's turn comes up.  He declares that he's going to use his first simple action to ready his firearm, and then he will use his second simple action to shoot.  Then, he says he will move up to his full run speed, spending his free action to do so and simultaneously using up his "no action" walk as he is running instead.

1)  Since Bob is considered to be running for his entire combat turn, should he have received penalties to his shot with his firearm?  Or does he avoid those penalties by declaring and resolving his shot before declaring and resolving his run?

During Bob's second initiative pass (which happens at initiative 6 because of his original initiative score of 16), he once again gets 2 simple actions or 1 complex action, plus he gets a free action, plus he can walk for no action.  However, Bob has already previously declared himself to be running, and his running speed is calculated per combat turn as opposed to initiative pass.  So, he can't "run again" so-to-speak.

2)  Does Bob get a free action during this second IP, or is it considered to be "used up" by his previous declaration of running in his previous IP?

3)  What if Bob, during his first IP, declared that he was using his free action to do something OTHER than run?  Something like drop an item or speak a phrase?  Does he get another free action during his second IP that he can use to speak ANOTHER phrase?  Can he elect to run with his second IP's free action even if he didn't elect to run during the first?

[Ryo]

I am now fully confused.

Bob has an initiative score of 16.  On Bob's first initiative pass, he gets either 2 simple actions or 1 complex action, plus he gets a free action, plus he can walk for no action.

(As an aside, I have always hated how characters get free actions but can walk for "free", but this isn't considered a "free action."  That's needlessly confusing.)

So, Bob's turn comes up.  He declares that he's going to use his first simple action to ready his firearm, and then he will use his second simple action to shoot.  Then, he says he will move up to his full run speed, spending his free action to do so and simultaneously using up his "no action" walk as he is running instead.

1)  Since Bob is considered to be running for his entire combat turn, should he have received penalties to his shot with his firearm?  Or does he avoid those penalties by declaring and resolving his shot before declaring and resolving his run?

During Bob's second initiative pass (which happens at initiative 6 because of his original initiative score of 16), he once again gets 2 simple actions or 1 complex action, plus he gets a free action, plus he can walk for no action.  However, Bob has already previously declared himself to be running, and his running speed is calculated per combat turn as opposed to initiative pass.  So, he can't "run again" so-to-speak.

2)  Does Bob get a free action during this second IP, or is it considered to be "used up" by his previous declaration of running in his previous IP?

3)  What if Bob, during his first IP, declared that he was using his free action to do something OTHER than run?  Something like drop an item or speak a phrase?  Does he get another free action during his second IP that he can use to speak ANOTHER phrase?  Can he elect to run with his second IP's free action even if he didn't elect to run during the first?

1) Page 158 and 159 detail the order of operations of a combat turn. You declare all your actions for your Action Phase before you resolve them, so if Bob declared that he is readying and firing his weapon, he also has to declare his movement before he rolls the attack. Therefore, he would take penalties to his shot for running his full speed.

2) Bob must spend his free action to continue running every pass, yes.

3)If Bob did not move up to his running speed in the first pass, then yes, he could use his Free Action for something else in his first pass, and even use it for something else in his second pass. However, if he ever moves far enough to hit his Run speed, he must spend all his free actions for the rest of the Combat Turn on running, and he can't start to run if he already spent a free action on something else.

[Capnris]

Remember that Combat turns (Not inititative passes!) are about 3 seconds long apiece. That means that if a character is shooting his weapon and running in the same 3 seconds, it's happening at almost the same time. If he wants to avoid running penalties for shooting, he needs to keep his movement under his walk rate (which is double his Agility) until he's done shooting, i.e. until the next pass. In order to get it out of pure crunch and bring some imagery to it all, think of it this way:

Bob has an initiative of 16. In the first second of combat, he whips out his Predator and starts shooting. He wants to get to cover, but without sacrificing his aim, so he takes a second moving carefully to keep the trogs lined up. In the next second, once the thugs have responded in kind, he finds that cover isn't getting in front of him fast enough to keep the lead away from his ears, and starts hustling as he shoots, shaking up his weapon arm.

In game terms, Bob fires his weapon and keeps his movement under his Walk rate in the first initiative pass, waiting until the second IP to get up to his Run rate and take the penalties.

It's a little weird even to me, as I'm used to D&D and 6-second rounds of one action per character.

As for Free Actions, I consider them that last tiny bit of focus you have left over while doing something else, such as the part of your brain that wonders what the weather is like as you fill out paperwork at your desk. Walking is second nature, you don't have to put any attention to it, but kicking it up to Running requires enough attention to keep you from applying face to pavement, thus the expenditure of the Free Action.

[Godwyn]

Nice summaries.  I had been missing the free action on every subsequent action pass to account for the running.  That will change things up a bit.

[Xenon]

(As an aside, I have always hated how characters get free actions but can walk for "free", but this isn't considered a "free action."  That's needlessly confusing.)

You can run for "free" by taking a free action
(while still using your two simple actions or complex action for other things).

if you run you can't for example use multiple attack to attack more than one target or call a shot.
you get -2 dice on ranged attacks if you are running at the same time
...but if you are using melee(!) you get +2 dice on melee attacks if you are running at the same time (running is great if you use melee!)

ranged attackers that are in melee combat have -3 to attack with ranged weapon.
(if you run up to an opponent and attack him in melee he will have -3 dice to attack your friends and since you are running he will have -5 dice to attack you)

defenders in melee targeted by ranged attack give -3 dice to defend against the ranged attack.
(if you run up to an opponent and attack him in melee he will have -3 dice to defend when your friends shoot him).

Defenders (both against ranged and melee attackers) get +2 dice to avoid getting hit when running.
(you run to charge attack someone, everyone have -2 dice to hit you with ranged or melee weapons).

Defenders get +4 dice to avoid getting hit when they are sprinting (this modifier is hidden away in text on top of p. 163)
(if you declare that you sprint on your action phase you can't take any other actions until it is your time to act again or the end of the combat turn, during this time you are considered sprinting and get +4 dice to avoid getting hit from ranged and melee weapons).

And then you have Interception...
If your target decide to move out of melee range (to avoid all them negative dice pool modifiers) the melee guy get an option to attack him with an interrupt action (this let you attack the same target more than once in the same action phase - once when you charged him and once when he tries to move away to have a chance to shoot without being considered in melee).

The interception interrupt action cost 5 initiative score (but it will not cost your action phase if you have not acted yet this initiative pass - unless of course you run out of initiative score before it is your turn to act). You can also use this interrupt action to take a swing on anyone that just tries to move pass you on their action phase.

The only way a target can deny you an interception if they spend their full attention on it (it cost a complex action) by taking a Agility + Gymnastics [Physical] test
(they spend their full action phase doing nothing than avoiding interception and moving)

Another benefit for melee is the way movement is resolved in SR5
consider 5 agility.
the first action phase you can choose to move right into the middle of the opponent gang of 3 people (up to 10m away)
use your free action on multiple attack.
swing your weapon once on everyone in range (up to weapon skill / 2 (round up) targets; with weapon skill 5 you can attack all 3 targets)
doesn't really matter if you hit or not...
- the point is that all targets you attack are now considered being in melee.
This mean all 3 targets now get -3 to:
defend against your friends ranged attacks.
attack with ranged attacks since they are considered to be in melee.
...And if anyone of them leave you can spend 5 initiative score to hit them with a free melee attack
(even if you already acted or are going to act in the initiative pass)

in the following action phases you still have little less than 10-20m left you can utilize for movement (depending on how much you moved in the initial attack). If there is only one target left or if all targets are scattered so you can't lock more than one in combat anyway then you should make a point in moving enough to be considered running so you get harder to hit and so you get a positive dice pool modifier to hit your target.


Another option would be to burn your free action on running and move slightly just over 10 meters (or all the way up to 20(!)m if you like) in your first action phase and be considered running for the entire combat turn and charge attack a single target.
you get +2 to attack your target.
your target get -3 to defend against your friends ranged attacks.
everyone get -2 to hit you.
you get +2 to avoid getting hit.
your target is locked at that position, if he move you can attack him again for 5 initiative score.
your target get -3 to ranged attacks (so total of -5 if he want to hit you with his ranged weapon).

in the following action phases you still have 0-10m you can utilize for movement (depending on how much you burned in the previous action phase).
even if you don't decide to move anymore you will still be considered running (+2 to attack, +2 to defend and everyone have -2 to attack you).

If there are no targets within range you can spend an action to Take Cover which will give you another +2 to +4 dice when defending (depending on how good cover there is available) that will stack on the -2 they already have to hit you. Another option would be to spend your action phase on taking a sprint test since that will give everyone -4 instead of -2 dice to hit you and it will also give you even more movement to utilize during the action phase... or simply pull out a weapon and shoot something (but you will have -2 to hit since your are still considered running).

[Tangent]

Thanks for the replies guys.  More questions:

1)  During Bob's first IP, he walks and shoots.  During Bob's second IP, he decided to run.  His run distance is the max that he can move while running in a single combat turn, and lets say this value is 25 meters while his walking speed is only 10 meters.  If he walks during his first IP and then runs in his second, how far does he get in that combat turn?  25 or 35?  If the answer is 25, and 25 is the max, then clearly he would have had to have been running during the entire combat turn, and NOT just during his second IP, no?  Which means, if he was running during the entire combat turn, he should have had penalties to his shooting during his FIRST IP, right?  I mean, logically.

2)  When exactly does a character arrive at their destination when they elect to move?  As an example, Bob wants to move to cover, which is within his max running distance.  He goes first as he has the highest initiative score.  On his enemy's initiative during the same combat turn, the enemy decides to shoot at Bob.  Is Bob already considered to have reached the cover, and so gets a bonus from the shot?  Or is he considered to be "on his way" to the cover and will only receive that bonus during the NEXT combat turn?

[Xenon]

In SR5 your current movement rate is calculated from how far you moved so far in the combat turn.

1) how far does he get in that combat turn?
- If he move 10 meters in his first action phase and 15 meters in his second action phase then he move the maximum amount of 25 meters in that combat turn. if he wish to move more than a total of 25 meters in one combat turn (25 meters is your example, normally it would agility x 4 meters) then he would have to take a sprint test.

You don't declare that you "walk" in the IP.
You declare  that you move 10 meters in the action phase.
For some people (agility 4 or less) that will count as if they are running and they have to spend their free action on this, for Bob this might still count as walking (if we assume that Bob got agility 6).

In the next action phase Bob can choose to move zero meters (and still be considered walking).
Bob with agility of 6 can also choose to move 2 meters in his second action phase (and still be considered walking since he can move agility x2 -or 12- meters in a combat turn without count as running).

Bob can also choose to move more than 2 meters (up to a maximum of 14 meters which will be a total of agility x4 -or 24- meters which is the maximum he can move in a combat turn without spending a complex action taking a sprint test). In this case he will, from this point until the end of the combat turn, be considered running and have to spend his free action on running for all following action phases in this combat turn.

Bob can also declare that he want to move more than 14 meters this action phase (more than a total of 24 meter which is his agility x4) by taking a sprint test. It cost him his free action because he is running and a complex action to take a Running + Strength [Physical] Test. Each hit in this test let him move another 2 meters beyond the 14 meters he had left. In this case he can't take any other actions this action phase. He is considered sprinting which mean he get +2 dice to defense tests and opponents get -4 dice to attack him with ranged attacks until Bob act again.



2) When exactly does a character arrive at their destination when they elect to move?
- During his action phase

This is a very simplified system. designed to be fast and not clutter down the combat sequence.
if your opponent is 13 meter away and you want to stab him with a knife you declare that you charge him and stab him with a knife (moving 13 meters in your action phase and get a +2 attack bonus because of the charged attack).

If Bob have agility 6 and there is cover 24 meter away he can declare that he run for cover 24 meter away. He spend his free action on running and can spend a simple action taking a shot with a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice while running and then he spend a simple action to Take Cover right before his action phase is over. Cover will give him +2 or even +4 dice when defending against attacks. He is also considered running which will give him another +2 dice. Opponents get -2 dice to attack him since he is considered running. Cover does not give a negative dice pool modifier for attackers (unless you are 100% behind cover -which will give them a blind fire modifier.... but being 100% behind cover might also mean that you only roll 4 dice when avoiding shots that penetrate the barrier you hide behind [since you will be considered unaware of the attacker if you can't see him; depending on your reading]).

In his next action phase Bob can not move anymore unless he take a sprint test. He is still considered running and have to spend his free action on that. He still get a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice if he want to use a ranged attack.

In the next combat turn Bob have moved 0 meters and can move again.


it is a very simplified set of rules made to be fast to resolve during combat.
it works well in practice (imo)

[Michael Chandra]

1: Logically, yes. However, movement is simplified to not give such headaches. The Running penalties only start applying once your total movement during that Combat Turn exceeds your Walking Rate, at which point you also must use 1 Free Action each IP for running. Since you must declare movement at the start of your IP, you can only decelerate but it still counts as having used up that movement distance, you have no choice but to take the penalties during that IP.

2: You arrive instantly. Once more, this is part of movement being simplified. Keep in mind that taking Cover is a Simple Action, whereas simply diving behind a wall, from which you can only fire at severe penalties and cannot be seen behind, does not consume an action.

[Tangent]

Ok, so since characters have to declare all their actions for the current IP at the start of their turn, they can't, for instance, take a shot, wait to see the result of that shot, and THEN decide whether or not they want to move, right?

[Michael Chandra]

Correct. They can, however, declare they intent to move and then cancel it (and still spend the movement rate) after the shot. But they can't go "I move to X if the shot succeeds and to Y if it fails", unless either of the two is on the path to the other.

[Tangent]

Correct. They can, however, declare they intent to move and then cancel it (and still spend the movement rate) after the shot. But they can't go "I move to X if the shot succeeds and to Y if it fails", unless either of the two is on the path to the other.

So, it's as if they are shooting (in a hurry) with the intent to move afterward, which means they don't take time to aim, etc.  Then, when they notice the result of the shot, they just don't move, even though they just fired the shot as though they were about to.

[Xenon]

Are you asking about how to resolve the combat turn sequence...?

p. 158 THE BASICS - Combat Turn Sequence
1. Roll Initiative
2. Begin Initiative Pass
3. Begin Action Phase
3a) Declare Actions
The acting character declares his actions for the Action Phase. He may take two Simple Actions or one Complex Action during his Action Phase.
The character may also declare one Free Action [such as Running] during each Action Phase in the Combat Turn.

For example: "I run for cover behind the sofa 15 meters to my left while I take a shot at the shaman".

(the above example would be a free action for <Running>, a simple action for <Fire Semi-Auto, Single-Shot, Burst Fire or Full-Auto> and a simple action to <Take Cover>).

If the character's total movement this combat turn, including the 15 meters in this action phase, exceed agility x4 then his GM would inform him that he can't reach the sofa this combat turn unless he spend a complex action sprinting (and if he sprint then he can not also take a simple action to shoot at the shaman or a simple action to Take Cover behind the sofa).

3b) Resolve Actions
- With start of this action phase and until his first action in the next combat turn the character will be considered -and use all his free actions until then on-  running.
- He will perform <Fire Semi-Auto, Single-Shot, Burst Fire or Full-Auto> with a negative dice pool modifier of two dice because Attacker running (p. 176)
- Opponents trying to hit the character will have a negative dice pool modifier of two dice due to ranged attack against a running opponent (p. 162).
- The character also get a positive dice pool modifier of two dice to avoid getting hit because Defender running (p. 190)
- and another two or four dice because Target has Partial/Good Cover (p. 190).

[martinchaen]

Speaking of which, anyone else think it's a little odd that sprinting is a complex action and not a simple action?