[Xenon]

Speaking of which, anyone else think it's a little odd that sprinting is a complex action and not a simple action?

not at all.
it take your full attention to sprint as fast as you possible can.

no way you do that and at the same time fire an arrow from a bow on someone or inserting a clip in your assault rifle...

People also get a negative dice pool modifier of another two dice (for a total of four) trying to hit you
(and you still get a positive defense dice pool of two dice)

...why shoot and Take Cover when shoot and Sprint is "better"

[martinchaen]

Well, that's the thing. Sprinting into cover shouldn't be mutually exclusive to my mind; you can't sprint (a complex action) AND drop prone (a free action) simultaneously, as by virtue of running you've already spent your free action. Barreling headfirst into cover should be possible, but it very clearly is not. It also makes melee tricky, as you can spend your first turn sprinting to get to the opponent, and then stand right in front of him like a moron while he does whatever he likes to do you at no modifier, or worse move away.

The way the rules are written it's impossible to use sprint to get into melee contact or cover, and that makes it a far less desirable option in my book.

[Alchemyst]

Well, that's the thing. Sprinting into cover shouldn't be mutually exclusive to my mind; you can't sprint (a complex action) AND drop prone (a free action) simultaneously, as by virtue of running you've already spent your free action. Barreling headfirst into cover should be possible, but it very clearly is not. It also makes melee tricky, as you can spend your first turn sprinting to get to the opponent, and then stand right in front of him like a moron while he does whatever he likes to do you at no modifier, or worse move away.

The way the rules are written it's impossible to use sprint to get into melee contact or cover, and that makes it a far less desirable option in my book.

Keep in mind that sprinting is a full out arm pumping exertion, not something you want to do in combat anyways. If you want to run up to someone to strike them then charge, don't sprint towards them like a track star wannabe flailing about. Why anyone would even consider sprinting into melee is beyond me.

As for cover, again, sprinting from cover to cover? When is that even plausible? Seriously, as stated, sprinting is an all out gungho type of thing. Unless it's going to a fully covered position it's not viable, even in real life. You hustle yeah, but that's what running is for. Also, free actions are normally limited to one however GM common sense intervenes. I personally would rule that if someone wanted to sprint and dive prone at the end they could. Just like the example in the book (dropping an object while speaking) the two actions wouldn't conflict if prone was at the end so I see no reason not to allow it. See a full sprint to prone in baseball all the time.

[martinchaen]

Alchemyst If you can't fathom the need for running at full speed to get your ass behind some cover, you've clearly never seen combat up close and personal. Zig-zagging is for movies; if you don't want to get hit, you haul ass and get behind something solid. If I can do it with an 11kg pack and an assault rifle in real life, a shadowrunner can easily do so in the 6th World. And  yes, I was talking about full cover, which is not as easily possible given the free action used for running. You cannot drop prone, and as such are relegated to cover you can fully hide your erect form behind.

As for melee; you've never seen an NFL safety tackle a running back at full speed? Open your mind, man

[Alchemyst]

Alchemyst If you can't fathom the need for running at full speed to get your ass behind some cover, you've clearly never seen combat up close and personal. Zig-zagging is for movies; if you don't want to get hit, you haul ass and get behind something solid. If I can do it with an 11kg pack and an assault rifle in real life, a shadowrunner can easily do so in the 6th World. And  yes, I was talking about full cover, which is not as easily possible given the free action used for running. You cannot drop prone, and as such are relegated to cover you can fully hide your erect form behind.

First off, don't make assumptions about people you've never met. I can tell you first hand that there is a difference between hauling ass and sprinting while you are getting shot at. No one runs like they are on an open track unless they either A will be fully protected/hidden on the end (fully covered) or B hoping to get shot.

Realistically you will run as fast as you can without trying to look like Usain Bolt from cover to cover. That's easily done with a Free Action and a Simple Action.

As for melee; you've never seen an NFL safety tackle a running back at full speed? Open your mind, man

You mean a player running from behind because they are extremely athletic and most likely have multiple initiative passes and/or high agility from a SR5 mechanics point of view or are actually smart and run intercept paths where they come from the side and make a charging attack instead of sprinting like a mindless madman? You're right, I clearly am close minded on the subject.

[Alchemyst]

I apologize, I know how against multi-posting people can be on this forum. However, I particularly like that you are notified before posting a reply of new posts that have been posted while typing unlike edits and I find the need to address this part of your post separately as I made the point previously but you seemed to skim over (it was brief afterall).

You cannot drop prone, and as such are relegated to cover you can fully hide your erect form behind.

While it is RAW that you cannot take multiple Free Actions per pass, I would like to point out this tidbit that is also RAW...

Only one Free Action is normally allowed per Initiative Pass, but multiple Free Actions could be allowed by the gamemaster if the situation seems reasonable (dropping an object and speaking a phrase).

Would you deem sprinting and diving prone at the end reasonable? Then vioala! The player can do it. I think most GMs would deem it reasonable under most circumstances.

[Xenon]

there is a 5 initiative score interrupt action to hit the dirt. it's there to use against suppressive fire in case you don't have a free action but i guess i could let you use it if you really want to go prone in an action phase where you are sprinting.

and there is a special rule that let GM give you more than one free action if he so see fit...

you will end up prone in your next action phase though
- which mean you will have to spend a simple action to stand up if you want to keep moving...


in 99% of all combat situation where you hold a weapon in your hand(s) you will be using "running" speed.
for an agility 5 character that is a speed of up to 6.5 meter per second (which is up to 24 km/h or 15 mph)
this is a speed that let you do one complex or two simple actions (with a negative dice pool modifier of two dice).

[martinchaen]

Cool, didn't know about the multiple free actions part. And yes, Interrupt actions would likely work, too.

I stand by my full-ahead sprint not requiring Usain Bolt level concentration, on the other hand. A mad dash is a mad dash is a dash mad...

[Alchemyst]

I stand by my full-ahead sprint not requiring Usain Bolt level concentration, on the other hand. A mad dash is a mad dash is a dash mad...

Except that's exactly how SR5 describes it. Keep in mind that the average shadowrunner can Sprint at approximately 12 mph for 10.5s before passing out (literally collapsing to the ground) for an hour. Just keep in mind that what you deem sprinting, Shadowrun mechanics probably see as simply the Running Speed.

[martinchaen]

Alchemyst I'm not sure I would agree with that assessment of game mechanics. 12mph is awefully fast, and most average humans can not get up to those kinds of speeds, especially not while wearing a combat pack and carrying a rifle.

Even trained operatives, as represented by attribute levels 5 and 6, would have a hard time maintaining that kind of speed for very long, and the fatigue representation is just off all together. I've never seen anyone literally run themselves into a feint; you'll fall down before you pass out.

[Alchemyst]

Alchemyst I'm not sure I would agree with that assessment of game mechanics. 12mph is awefully fast, and most average humans can not get up to those kinds of speeds, especially not while wearing a combat pack and carrying a rifle.

Even trained operatives, as represented by attribute levels 5 and 6, would have a hard time maintaining that kind of speed for very long, and the fatigue representation is just off all together. I've never seen anyone literally run themselves into a feint; you'll fall down before you pass out.

It IS really fast... That's exactly my point. You don't agree with sprinting rules because you're stuck thinking of your concept of what sprinting means instead of the game's actual rules. By SR5 rules the speeds you are thinking are considered 'running.' Sprinting IS all out arm pumping pushing your limits.

[martinchaen]

That's what we disagree on, though: speed. Unlike you, I realize that speed is relative to the character, and not a constant. Sprinting for an Agility 1 character is much slower than it is for an Agility 10 character.

The only thing that matters is action economy, which obviously can be circumvented by individual GMs. But the core rules fail to account for some very basic actions, in my opinion, such as sprinting from cover to cover and hurtling yourself head first into an enemy. The result is those weird situation where the melee adept is able to reach his enemy in game terms as a result of sprinting, but is left standing there with nothing to do.

I am merely saying that imposing actions on movement seems an odd contrast given that walking takes place outside of the action economy.

Anyway, I've said what I wanted. Cheers for sharing your views.

[Alchemyst]

That's what we disagree on, though: speed. Unlike you, I realize that speed is relative to the character, and not a constant. Sprinting for an Agility 1 character is much slower than it is for an Agility 10 character.

Whoa, needlessly hostile. I realize speed is relative, that comment was not needed. Calm down.

The only thing that matters is action economy, which obviously can be circumvented by individual GMs. But the core rules fail to account for some very basic actions, in my opinion, such as sprinting from cover to cover and hurtling yourself head first into an enemy.

They absolutely do.

The average character can move 8 or 9 miles per hour and still have enough actions left to shoot and take cover, where exactly is this lack of sprinting from cover to cover you speak of? Is 9mph from cover to cover while firing at your enemy not fast enough?

Heck, you can even run head first into an enemy at 9mph (~20-21 mph possible without augmentation) and smack them with a melee attack for a bonus. Again I fail to see how SR5 fails to account for these situations.

The result is those weird situation where the melee adept is able to reach his enemy in game terms as a result of sprinting, but is left standing there with nothing to do.

If he is needing to sprint in order to reach his opponent and has no action phases left to take that turn then there is a chance his target will get away but this is all happening within 3 seconds. It's not like Player A is left standing there like a deer in the headlights with his sword in the air and then player B turns and runs.

On a side note, when is a melee adept ever going to NEED to sprint to reach an enemy to attack?

I am merely saying that imposing actions on movement seems an odd contrast given that walking takes place outside of the action economy.

Walking has no cost, running costs a free action (possible stun every 3 minutes), running speed can be increased with a complex (possible stun every action phase). Just because walking has no cost doesn't mean it's outside of the action economy...

Anyway, I've said what I wanted. Cheers for sharing your views.

So long.

[ProfessorCirno]

Really I think the hangup is all in the name "sprint," but "GET THE DREK OUT" doesn't fit quite so well

If you're sprinting in combat (or rather, using the Sprint action) you are 9/10 times running "away" rather then "towards," unless the "towards" is referring to immediate transport.

[Alchemyst]

Really I think the hangup is all in the name "sprint," but "GET THE DREK OUT" doesn't fit quite so well

Great now all my drones will have an Evac mode named after that.