[hayek]

Rules question on Rigging/Hacking if anyone could be so kind as to help! If a Rigger is jumped-in, they can be attacked/hacked in the Matrix. SR5, p. 266 says Matrix Damage is applied to the first device used to create your Persona (i.e. connect to the Matrix). It says if you use a Commlink or RCC, damage applies to that device, but if you're directly connected to the vehicle, damage is applied to the vehicle.

This seems to imply that you can be 'on the Matrix' without going through a Commlink/RCC. I didn't think that was possible? If it is possible, and you are attacked in the Matrix, what would be your Firewall/Data Processing for defense if you weren't going through a Commlink/RCC (and were only Directly Connected to a vehicle)? Just 0 for each?

As a secondary question, can you still directly connect even if you're using a Commlink or RCC? I would assume yes if you have a datajack (or implanted Commlink), as you can directly plug yourself into the Commlink and then directly plug yourself into the Vehicle.

Relevant passage below:

When you take Matrix damage, it goes to the first device
you’re using for your persona, not the device you’re
jumped into. If you used your commlink or rigger command
console to enter VR before jumping in, your commlink
or RCC (respectively) is the target of Matrix damage
to your persona. If you’re directly connected to the vehicle
you’re jumped into, the vehicle takes the Matrix damage.

Appreciate any insight anyone can give!

[Alchemyst]

Unless otherwise stated, all devices in the matrix have a Firewall Rating equal to their Device Rating. You can find more information on page 234 under Device and Personas.

[Xenon]

If a rigger want to control the vehicle while not physically being in the vehicle (by sending messages to the auto pilot, by remote controlling the vehicle or by jumping in) then the vehicle need to be wireless ON. If the vehicle is wireless ON then the vehicle matrix icon (or your persona icon if jumped in from RCC or commlink) can be attacked from the matrix.

If a rigger want to control the vehicle while physically inside the vehicle (by manual control or by jumping in through a direct connection) then the vehicle can be wireless OFF (or ON). If the vehicle is wireless OFF then the vehicle does not have a matrix icon that can be attacked from the matrix.

To go Virtual Reality you need DNI and a Sim Module.

The normal is by getting a data jack (or trodes) and a commlink but there are more options.

Here is a full list:
Data Jack + Commlink w/ sim module
Data Jack + RCC w/ sim module (depending on your reading)
Data Jack + Cyberdeck
Trodes + Commlink w/ sim module
Trodes + RCC w/ sim module (depending on your reading)
Trodes + Cyberdeck
Internal Commlink
Internal Cyberdeck
Control Rig

Yes Control Rig.
p. 265 The Control Rig state:
...It has a built-in sim module, so you can use it for DNI with other devices. It also comes with a universal data connector and about a meter of retractable cable (it’s like getting a free datajack).

A word on sim module and hot-sim:
The Rigger Command Console (or RCC for short) doesn't actually come with a sim module and it is unclear if it can be modded with one, but since it is basically a commlink you probably can. Then again, it is almost always only used by riggers and all riggers have a control rig (and the control rig come with a sim module).

Control Rig does come with a sim module, but it seem as if it is not modded for hot-sim. There are no rules to mod it for hot-sim (Aaron suggested that you use commlink rules, but that would make it illegal to get a rating 2 control rig at chargen due to availability).

If you want to go strictly RAW then you would need to form a persona with your commlink with a sim module modded for hot-sim if you want to go hot-sim VR as a rigger.


You use RCC to send a command to multiple drones as one simple action. You also use RCC to jump between slaved drones and vehicles without first spending time to jump out. RCC is also used to reduce noise between you and your drones and to share software that you have running on your RCC. RCC also come with a firewall rating.

When talking jumping in a single vehicle that is wireless OFF using a direct connection from your Control Rig you don't need RCC.

If you jump into a vehicle using just your control rig then your merged vehicle/persona icon will have the same stats as the vehicle (which mean you will have a rather poor firewall rating, rating 2 or maybe 3). I would not recommend doing this wireless (remote) or even with a direct connection if the vehicle is wireless ON (except as a last resort). You will be much to vulnerable. A much better option would be to establish the connection through your RCC (or at least a commlink if you don't have RCC). That will provide you with a higher firewall rating.

The Firewall and Data Processing ratings of a commlink is equal to it's device rating on the table at p. 439
The Firewall and Data Processing ratings of a remote command console are listed on the table at p. 267
The Firewall and Data Processing ratings of a vehicle is equal to the vehicle's device rating table at p. 234

Depending on your reading RCC can also run cyberprograms (such as Firewall, Guard and Shell).

You can directly connect if you are using a commlink or RCC. If the vehicle is wireless ON then you can still be attacked from the matrix but in this case you have a much stronger firewall and damage taken will go to the commlink or RCC rather than the vehicle. If you want to be sure you don't suffer noise penalties you connect your Control Rig directly to your RCC (your Control Rig come with a free data jack) and your RCC directly to your vehicle.

[FasterN8]

There's a funny situation here since I don't think a Control Rig alone is sufficient to support a Persona.  DNI and a sim module are just a feature and accessory of devices that provides a personas.

But we know that to Jump Into a vehicle you have to be in VR.  And we know you can clearly jump directly into a vehicle that you're sitting in without a commlink or RCC.  So my question is:  How do you describe that Rigger jumped into a vehicle that he is directly connected to? (without a commlink or RCC)

Is he in VR? 
What if the vehicle is wireless OFF?  (ie How can he be in VR and not connected to the Matrix?)
If the vehicle is wireless ON, does the rigger technically have a persona, or just the vehicle's device icon?
If he has a persona, is it the vehicle hosting it, or his control Rig?

[Xenon]

he is in VR (p. 266)
to get VR you need DNI and sim module (red box p. 222)
control rig give both (p. 265)

[FasterN8]

Well I disagree that the Control Rig is sufficient to go VR as a general rule despite the RAW you have stated.  I think that the red box on pg 222 assumes that the user was is using a commlink or a cyberdeck.  It was probably too trusting on the developers part that they would assume that box would be taken in the context of using a commlink or a deck.

(Remember that RCCs have all the capabilities of a commlink, so anywhere you see "commlink" that also could also mean an RCC.)

This is supported by
A) a multitude of other instances of AR and VR use mentioning a commlink or deck as the device,
B) a complete absence of examples of VR use using no devices other than a control Rig,
C) pg 266 lists where Matrix damage goes when jumped in, either the commlink, deck, or vehicle (all devices)
D) If the Control Rig alone could provide VR (and AR by extension), then it would be sufficient to use the send message matrix action and therefore serve as an implanted commlink as well, and something that useful would definitely be listed in the 'ware description of Control Rig.

In the special case of a rigger jacked directly into a vehicle, I think the vehicle becomes the device hosting his persona (if the vehicle is wireless ON), but I don't think the rigger can use the vehicle like other persona hosting devices that allow him to travel away from his device in virtual space.  While there is a fair amount of evidence to support that a rigged vehicle can be persona-device for a rigger, that last part is just my interpretation of the limitations of VR via direct rigging.

If the vehicle is Wireless OFF, then he can't possibly be connected to the matrix, but we also know he's still VR so I suppose he's stuck in his own little VR world of 1 device (the vehicle).  Which makes some sense, since even a rigger that's "jumped in" to a drone from the matrix probably isn't perceiving the matrix like everyone else who is in VR.  Instead, he's perceiving only the information which his drones sensors are feeding him. 

In short, I think the last part of your "To go VR" list should read: 
Control Rig + Rigged Vehicle (with limitations)

[Alchemyst]

There's a funny situation here since I don't think a Control Rig alone is sufficient to support a Persona.  DNI and a sim module are just a feature and accessory of devices that provides a personas.

You're absolutely right, see below.

But we know that to Jump Into a vehicle you have to be in VR.  And we know you can clearly jump directly into a vehicle that you're sitting in without a commlink or RCC.  So my question is:  How do you describe that Rigger jumped into a vehicle that he is directly connected to? (without a commlink or RCC)

Is he in VR? 
What if the vehicle is wireless OFF?  (ie How can he be in VR and not connected to the Matrix?)
If the vehicle is wireless ON, does the rigger technically have a persona, or just the vehicle's device icon?
If he has a persona, is it the vehicle hosting it, or his control Rig?

"If you’re using a direct connection and already plugged into the vehicle or RCC, you can jump into a vehicle directly from your meat body by taking a Simple Action."
If you're directly connected you don't need to be in VR to jump in.

Q. Is he in VR?
A. Yes.

Q. What if the vehicle is wireless OFF?  (ie How can he be in VR and not connected to the Matrix?)
A. The same way you can be 'in' a BTL trip or your commlink without a connection. You're just limited to the device itself.

Q. If the vehicle is wireless ON, does the rigger technically have a persona, or just the vehicle's device icon?
A. They are one and the same.
"A persona is the combination of a user and a device that gets the user onto the Matrix...A persona is usually based on a commlink, cyberdeck, or rigged vehicle or drone, although technomancers are a sort of device-less persona."
"From the Matrix, your icon and the device icon merge into a single icon."
"In the Matrix, the icon of the device you jumped into becomes part of your persona."

Q. If he has a persona, is it the vehicle hosting it, or his control Rig?
A. The vehicle. It's the same as when a decker jacks into a commlink using an implanted data jack.

[DMK]

In addition:

A rigger command console, or RCC, is like a deck for controlling drones (or other vehicles and devices). It’s about the size of a briefcase. It can act like a commlink and has all the features of a commlink in addition to the cool drone stuff.

Pretty plain that whatever a commlink can do, a RCC can do.

[acolyte99]

That's quite a good point, that Alchemyst made about BTL chips being a VR experience.

VR just means, that you see (hear, smell, taste, feel) something that is not there. VR does not automatically mean experiencing the matrix in VR with wireless on.

A BTL chip lets you perceive how it is to be Attila the Hun (it's a simsense recording without safety measures, no matrix or wireless in there).

AFAIK you can steer a vehicle via Control Device in AR (a joystick is "projected" by your commlink/deck/RCC) or VR (you are sitting a room with as many joysticks, steering wheels, pedals as you wish or rather as the programmer of the operating system wished; back in SR4 the rating of a "Command" program gave a measure how good these control elements where designed). Again there is no matrix needed to let you sit in the virtual room full of control elements. In this case matrix access is needed to let you connect to the drone/vehicle/device you want to control, but it's not needed to let the virtual room be there.

Jumping in means, you become the vehicle, you see, feel etc. what your vehicle or rather its sensors see, feel, etc. For that you don't need Wireless on, if you are connected with a cable to your vehicle. With wireless off you will not see icons and hosts around you, but I'm not sure how many of those matrix things riggers want to see. I can imagine that a lot of rigger filter a lot of stuff, that's interesting for deckers, and that they only leave VR-Matrix-stuff on, that's helpful for driving (like traffic signs, infos about traffic-jams etc.).

So I see no problem with being VR and only connected via cable to your vehicle with wirless off.

[RHat]

VR just means, that you see (hear, smell, taste, feel) something that is not there.

Actually, no - if you're not fully immersed, then those things merely mean you're in AR.  VR means you're fully immersed and your meat senses are being overridden.

[Xenon]

When you are jumped in you are either in cold sim VR or hot sim VR (by RAW).

You can jump in directly with just a control rig, but then you don't get a persona of your own.
If you jump in directly with just a control rig it is the vehicle icon that will take damage
If you jump in via RCC, commlink or cyberdeck then your RCC, commlink or cyberdeck take the damage.


As for experiencing AR and VR on the matrix....:

To view AR you either have imaging device and a commlink OR you have DNI.
You can also get a "super AR mode" if you use a sim module along with your DNI.
To get DNI you only need trodes or a data jack. Control rig come with a data jack.
So if you have a data jack then you get DNI.
And if you have DNI then you don't need a commlink or Image Link to see AR.
Control Rig is also fitted with a sim module (so you even get "super AR mode").

To view the matrix in VR you need DNI along with a sim module.
Control Rig provide you with DNI.
Control Rig provide you with sim module.
An internal commlink is only ~7k and 0.2 essence.
A control rig is ~100k and cost x10 as much essence.
I don't see why you should not be able to view the matrix using nothing but your control rig....?

Can you interact with devices linked to the matrix?
I don't see why not...? Since you have DNI - you can and should interact with devices.
Example of actions that are viable include:
Change Linked Device Mode.
Eject Smartgun Clip
Change Device Mode
Rigger Jump In (you get vehicle attributes when you take this action).

Can you interact with matrix by taking matrix actions?
Probably not.
When not jumped in you don't have a data processing or firewall rating...
Things that probably are off limits include:
Disarm Data Bomb
Edit File
Jump Into Rigged Device that you don't own or have permission to use
Matrix Search
All actions with Attack or Sleaze as a limit (except maybe if you push the limit; depending on your reading)

[Alchemyst]

You can jump in directly with just a control rig, but then you don't get a persona of your own.
If you jump in directly with just a control rig it is the vehicle icon that will take damage
If you jump in via RCC, commlink or cyberdeck then your RCC, commlink or cyberdeck take the damage.

This ^
However, I would just like correct that you ALWAYS get a persona of your own. Your persona in the above example would be ran on the vehicle. Just because the icons merge, doesn't effect persona.

To view the matrix in VR you need DNI along with a sim module.
Control Rig provide you with DNI.
Control Rig provide you with sim module.
An internal commlink is only ~7k and 0.2 essence.
A control rig is ~100k and cost x10 as much essence.
I don't see why you should not be able to view the matrix using nothing but your control rig....?

You can view AR with a control rig, you just can't use it to run a persona alone.
At least, that's how I understand it.

The reason the essence cost is so high is fluffed as, "Movement uses a lot of different parts of your brain, as do your senses, and the control rig connects to every one of them. That makes it easily the most invasive piece of headware you can buy..."

[Xenon]

However, I would just like correct that you ALWAYS get a persona of your own. Your persona in the above example would be ran on the vehicle. Just because the icons merge, doesn't effect persona.

What I meant was that you don't get a persona with attribute ratings of its own if you jump in by using a control rig alone. In that case you use the attribute ratings of the vehicle. It is also the vehicle that will take potential matrix damage (not your control rig).

But if you jump in via RCC or commlink you get a persona with attributes from the RCC or commlink. In this case it is the RCC or commlink that will take potential matrix damage (not the vehicle).

[hayek]

What I meant was that you don't get a persona with attribute ratings of its own if you jump in by using a control rig alone. In that case you use the attribute ratings of the vehicle. It is also the vehicle that will take potential matrix damage (not your control rig).

Agree, that's a key difference, since the Control Rig isn't taking Matrix Damage, it's different from how a Commlink/RCC puts you on the Matrix. Thanks for all the feedback, think i'm getting an idea of how it all works now. By the way, one correction I'd offer to your earlier summary Xenon:

If a rigger want to control the vehicle while physically inside the vehicle (by manual control or by jumping in through a direct connection) then the vehicle can be wireless OFF (or ON). If the vehicle is wireless OFF then the vehicle does not have a matrix icon that can be attacked from the matrix.

Would just add that Direct Connection can be used for for jumping-in or Remote Control (i.e. Control Device action) as well even while wireless is OFF.

[hayek]

A couple other thoughts:

The Firewall and Data Processing ratings of a vehicle is equal to the vehicle's device rating table at p. 234

My reading of the rules is that a Vehicle's Device Rating is equal to its Pilot Rating (p. 269 'The Device Rating of a drone is the same as its Pilot Rating, meaning all of its Matrix attributes are equal to the Pilot Rating.'). Would assume this is true for Vehicles with a Pilot Rating as well (which basically all Vehicles have, per equipment tables, p. 463).

Depending on your reading RCC can also run cyberprograms (such as Firewall, Guard and Shell).

Don't know how this depends on reading - the sidebar on p. 269 says 'Riggers can utilize a number of cyberprograms that deckers usually use. Programs purchased for use on an RCC cannot be used in a cyberdeck and vice versa... Here's a list of handy programs for the savvy rigger...' the list includes Guard and Shell as examples.