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Constant Data Theft

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Ryo

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« on: <01-09-14/2231:21> »
So I have a decker player who tries to just download the entire contents of whatever commlink or deck he comes across, almost without fail, every session. At a Johnson meet? Get a mark and download his entire comm. Trying to tail a guy? Get a mark and download his entire comm. Getting tailed by a guy? Get a mark and download his entire comm. Need to trace an enemy Decker? Well before you get that second mark, better download his entire deck.

I'm really not sure how to respond to this. First and foremost, is this even feasible? I have him roll Edit File to successfully copy, but its really vague about whether or not he could, using modern PCs as a comparison, just grab the entire C: folder and try to move it to his own device, or if he would have to do a separate Edit File action for every single file on the device in question. Not only that, but Edit File is a Data Processing action, so there's no downside if he fails, and no indication that the target is informed that somebody is copying all their shit. It's basically just a foregone conclusion unless there's a timer involved. There's also no indication of how long this should take. I know if I tried to just copy my entire hard drive to another device it'd take hours, but Shadowrun completely handwaves things like storage space and data transfer rates, so I don't really have anything to go on about whether he could fit the entire contents of another device on his deck, or how long the copying would take.

Secondly, if this is feasible, what is he reasonably going to find? I'm at a loss half the time about what to say is on these comms. If there isn't some specific file I had in mind for him to try and hack off the device, all I can really think of are things like contact lists, emails, message history, music libraries, and other things of no real value to him.

So, what should I do about this? Any advice would be appreciated.

firebug

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« Reply #1 on: <01-09-14/2302:48> »
My first impression is that doing that to every person he meets is very unprofessional, for one.  Especially to every Mr. Johnson.  Even if he's doing it entirely in DNI and has no AR visible and doesn't need to move his hands to do anything, he's still noticably distracted, because he is still doing a lot of mental actions.  Try holding a conversation or doing much of anything while reciting the table of elements in your head, and you'll see what I mean.  There's a reason why they take a Complex Action no matter what.

"Is this even feasible?"  There's no C drive in commlinks.  Maybe there technically is, but keep in mind this is a sci-fi cyberpunk setting.  When they say that a host looks like suburban street and all the files look like newspapers, then each file is seriously a newspaper and you need to go to each one.  For a commlink, you can't simply copy the whole thing in one action.  Not that it'd be useful, because...

No one of interest keeps everything important on their commlink.  Do you think that Mr. Johnson is going to a meet away from the safety of his corp, with a group that he knows includes a hacker, in what's possibly a seedy, dangerous bar, with his every-day commlink broadcasting his real SIN with all the pictures of his family on it?  No.

If you're trying to tail someone, sure.  Go ahead and waste time downloading his commlink and I dunno, getting some of the songs he downloaded for free.  Same with getting tailed and tracing a decker.  These people are not morons.  A decker should have an Agent running, using Matrix Perception every turn to check for marks and other things--  Think of it like a Host's Patrol IC.  And if you're going to waste many turns using Edit File on every image, word document, sound recording, video recording, and whatever else on that decker, he will notice you have a mark on him and erase it.  Or worse, start marking you while you're busy faffing about.

As I said earlier, he will almost never find anything of use on someone's commlink.  Anyone who has anything to do with the shadows won't be carrying all their important information on a commlink, and it won't be their real SIN either.  Anyone who is stupid or ignorant enough to keep all their info on their one commlink with their real SIN is probably just a civilian and won't have anything useful--  Unless looking for a specific thing they have is a key part of the run, or you plan on using a bit of personal information to taunt that one person in particular.

My advice is to make it clear to him that he's wasting his time, and that his employers will think of him as an unprofessional digitial-magpie, too distracted by random contact lists and music libraries to get a job done on time.  If he knows he won't find anything of use, and that he is in fact wasting time, he'll realize it's not worth doing unless he's just leisurely hacking some wageslave's commlink...

But remember to let him do it some times.  If there's some time between a mission, or he wants to, say...  Snoop through a corpsec's commlink for shits and giggles while an extraction is being set up, go ahead and let him.  Add some humor--  Maybe that guard has the entire musical history of Oingo Boingo on his commlink.  Maybe one took terrible selfies of himself holding a gun in the bathroom.  Just keep two things in mind, and tell him as well:  If he makes a mistake and reveals himself (failing a sleaze or attack action even once) then he could make the whole run harder for himself and everyone else by causing them to be a bit more alert.  And that once the run starts, time is of the essence, because he needs to be disabling security and avoiding detection, lest the Host launch IC or a High Threat Response team arrive.
« Last Edit: <01-09-14/2305:31> by firebug »
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Namikaze

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« Reply #2 on: <01-09-14/2303:52> »
It's feasible within the rules as written (RAW), but you may be making it too easy for him.  There's no reason to think that a Mr. Johnson wouldn't have some serious security in place on his commlink.  I mean, that's his livelihood right there.  Throw some Black IC at him, and then make Mr. Johnson get a warning about the intrusion.  Have him cut the meet short, either politely or with a squad of tough guys waiting to protect their employer.

If he goes after a decker's deck, make the decker's redundant Patrol IC (something he of course runs all the time on his deck) find the intruder and then signal for Black IC, Tar Baby IC, and something of your own design even.  No reason to think that the tech begins and ends with the book - you can make something incredibly nasty that the player simply MUST retreat from, and then that will remind him that there are bigger fish out there.

I bet after one of those kinds of encounters, he'll be much more cautious or won't even try it again.
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baronspam

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« Reply #3 on: <01-10-14/0011:56> »
It's feasible within the rules as written (RAW), but you may be making it too easy for him.  There's no reason to think that a Mr. Johnson wouldn't have some serious security in place on his commlink.  I mean, that's his livelihood right there.  Throw some Black IC at him, and then make Mr. Johnson get a warning about the intrusion.  Have him cut the meet short, either politely or with a squad of tough guys waiting to protect their employer.

If he goes after a decker's deck, make the decker's redundant Patrol IC (something he of course runs all the time on his deck) find the intruder and then signal for Black IC, Tar Baby IC, and something of your own design even.  No reason to think that the tech begins and ends with the book - you can make something incredibly nasty that the player simply MUST retreat from, and then that will remind him that there are bigger fish out there.

I bet after one of those kinds of encounters, he'll be much more cautious or won't even try it again.

I agree.  Letting the decker get away with this is like letting the street sam only fight cubscouts.  There are times when you can raid a comlink for something good, but much of the time either (a) its just a security guard and there isn't anything useful there (unless they are getting creative and are getting the com code of the security supervisor so they can spoof a call to him), (b) a shadow savvy person who comes to the meet with a burn phone and an alternative SIN, or (c) a target like a Johnson or fixer has his real comlink, and all the appropriate security, such as his own decker, agents, nasty IC, etc. 

Getting caught doing this to a contact or employer will sour the relationship immediately.  Its like the annoying guy you used to play DnD with that had his thief try to pickpocket everyone, even allies and patrons, and it ends in tears.

Now, there are times to hack someone's link, after all, that what the decker is there for, to hack stuff, but he needs to learn (maybe the hard way) to do a cost/benefit analysis before he jumps in.

Vidnaut

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« Reply #4 on: <01-10-14/0205:24> »
It's feasible within the rules as written (RAW), but you may be making it too easy for him.  There's no reason to think that a Mr. Johnson wouldn't have some serious security in place on his commlink.  I mean, that's his livelihood right there.  Throw some Black IC at him, and then make Mr. Johnson get a warning about the intrusion.  Have him cut the meet short, either politely or with a squad of tough guys waiting to protect their employer.

If he goes after a decker's deck, make the decker's redundant Patrol IC (something he of course runs all the time on his deck) find the intruder and then signal for Black IC, Tar Baby IC, and something of your own design even.  No reason to think that the tech begins and ends with the book - you can make something incredibly nasty that the player simply MUST retreat from, and then that will remind him that there are bigger fish out there.

I bet after one of those kinds of encounters, he'll be much more cautious or won't even try it again.

Unfortunately, only hosts can run IC now.  Hell, commlinks can't even run agents.  If the hacker's good enough, he'll HotF and completely compromise the commlink without getting marked back and alerting the owner, that's what they do.  Telling the Matrix ninja that he's too damn good at his job out on the grid and should get a time-out is what G-men are for.  All the Johnson has to do really is encrypt a lot of important files (or at least with names that seem important :3) on his commlink.  Don't forget he could have data bombs set on those files as well before encrypting (gotta love corporate IT!).  You can't copy that stuff until you break the encryption (edit file complex action) AND defuse the data bomb (disarm data bomb complex action) for each encrypted file he wants to decrypt to then copy (another Edit File action) so that's another turn of hacking and building up his overwatch score.  Put the fear of GOD into him.

Or, you can just LET him do a bulk copy file transfer from that throw-away commlink the Johnson had mined to hell and back with data bombs.  Just sit back, wait for the trap to be sprung, roll Matrix damage dice behind the screen, and describe the scene on his deck of 30 databombs going off simultaneously along with the bubbling sounds and acrid smell the melting deck welcomes the poor slot to reality with after he gets dumped.

Bet ya he'll be more careful with his next deck and not nearly as aggressive and ready to walk into Matrix jujitsu a second time.
« Last Edit: <01-10-14/0213:43> by Vidnaut »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #5 on: <01-10-14/0523:50> »
Put the Johnson on the Public Grid to give the decker a -2, let him use a rating 7 commlink and let him be paranoid and using Matrix Full Defense, as well as having his files protected in nasty ways. At 5 willpower that'd be a total disaster for the decker.
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Caradoc

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« Reply #6 on: <01-10-14/1252:03> »
Man, your Decker is just the mark I'd like to have getting hold of my data...

The Decker should be careful what he copies into his own system and opens, possibly activating some hidden programs/agents to infiltrate his system if he hasn't got adequate security. After all, he's just bypassed his own firewall.

Juicy files labelled 'CorpSec' or 'R&D projects review' with some encryption on them will appear to contain reasonably valuable paydata, but leave him wide open to being hacked if the hidden programs can infiltrate his own system. This could be just opportunistic to steal some nuyen from an online account, or maybe its a bit more sinister with possible lethal consequences.

Belker

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« Reply #7 on: <01-10-14/1330:40> »
Two words: Data Bomb.

Also, remember that the moment he takes that first illegal action, his Overwatch Score begins ticking, and keeps going up - potentially with every illegal action, but also by 2d6 every 15 minutes (page 232) until he reboots. Might be a tad embarrassing for GOD to converge on him during the middle of a meet.
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Nobody

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« Reply #8 on: <01-10-14/1405:23> »
So there are definitely a host of ways to stop him from chronic virtual pickpocketing, as have been mentioned. But every time a thread comes up about a loothound making the game hard for the team, I like to point out that the things they're stealing belong to someone. And there are a lot of epicly bad someones out there. I'm not sure if file protection and PFFs work similarly to 4th Edition, but protected files would often self-delete on copying in order to ensure file authenticity. Somewhere along the line, someone is going to find the breach and come looking for their data. He could already have stolen the file containing his death warrant and not even have bothered to crack it open yet when a van full of street sams unloads in his driveway.

Belker

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« Reply #9 on: <01-10-14/1427:37> »
So there are definitely a host of ways to stop him from chronic virtual pickpocketing, as have been mentioned. But every time a thread comes up about a loothound making the game hard for the team, I like to point out that the things they're stealing belong to someone. And there are a lot of epicly bad someones out there.< snip >

An excellent point, Nobody. Snagging what turns out to be, say, files being transferred by a Vory courier, would be most definitely unhealthy.
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RHat

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« Reply #10 on: <01-10-14/1431:30> »
Copying a file falls under Edit File, of course, which I would think requires a mark on the file...  In other words, I don't think this sort of bulk copying is really possible.  Edit File might not cause OS, but the actions to get a Mark certainly will.
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SoulGambit

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« Reply #11 on: <01-11-14/2135:48> »
You have to perform the Edit File action on every single file. At the very least, on every single folder (I'd let him download the guy's itunes library in one go because, whatever). He also has to have a Mark on those files/folders to download them.

Then there are data-bombs and encrypted files and a whole host of other defenses.

Ryo

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« Reply #12 on: <01-11-14/2159:17> »
Holy shit you need a mark on the file itself. Well, that changes everything. That should solve it in one fell swoop, since there's not a chance in hell he's gonna sleaze every file on a comm. GOD would converge in seconds.