[Ryo]

Street Magic is vague on this, so I figured I'd ask people here how they interpret things.

When you have an Inhabitation spirit inhabit a vessel, and achieve a Flesh Form, does the Spirit add its Force to the physical Attributes of the vessel, like with a Hybrid Spirit?

I always assumed it did, but then I just looked and noticed that it isn't specifically said to do so, which is making me think that Flesh Forms are actually a lot weaker than I thought.

[Reaver]

I am assuming you are talking about bug spirits. ....

The answer is somewhere in between.

A perfect meld makes a monster (can't be called human or spirit) that is almost indistinguishable from a normal metahuman... except by their aura. ... but they possess all the abilities of the bug spirit type. (Thus, can be really strong, or fast, or what have you...)

Hybreds however are far more common (and much more horrorific) this is where you get 12foot tall beetles, or 6foot long wasps from....

And yes, they still get their force added into their stats.... to a degree. Check out the write ups for the fresh forms in street magic.

[Ryo]

Bug Spirits are one example of inhabitation, sure, but its not the only one. This came up from a magician wanting an Ally spirit, which can either have Materialization, or be given a prepared vessel to Inhabit.

Street Magic doesn't actually have any write ups on specific flesh forms. It mentions that Scouts are aimed for flesh forms, but the stats say nothing about the body they inhabit.

[Reaver]

Bug Spirits are one example of inhabitation, sure, but its not the only one. This came up from a magician wanting an Ally spirit, which can either have Materialization, or be given a prepared vessel to Inhabit.

Street Magic doesn't actually have any write ups on specific flesh forms. It mentions that Scouts are aimed for flesh forms, but the stats say nothing about the body they inhabit.

I think you are thinking of Possession maybe for the ally spirit?? (hard to say with out knowing his tradition...) while Inhabitation IS possible for an ally spirit... it's a gruesome thing to do to a living thing.... but would be fine for a "doll" (inanimate structure).

Mind you, we all talking about people to generally make a living by shooting people in the face, so.... 

this is what Street magic has to say on the issue:

[From street magic, sidebar on page 102. bold facing by me.]


True Form
When a spirit inhabitation results in a true
form, the vessel is destroyed or consumed during
the merge and cannot be recovered. The
spirit takes form on the astral plane and gains
the powers of Astral Form and Materialization
(see pp. 287 and 289, SR4). A true form spirit
bares no resemblance to the original host vessel
and has the skills, attributes, and knowledge
of the spirit alone. A true form spirit can
persist in the astral plane and/or physical world
indefinitely without needing ties to a conjurer
or a spirit formula. Once disrupted, however,
the spirit requires a new vessel to inhabit before
it can return.
Hybrid Form
A hybrid form is a hybridization of the vessel
and the spirit into a single dual natured
entity (p. 289, SR4). A hybrid form merge enhances
the host’s Physical attributes by the
spirit’s Force. The spirit retains the host’s
natural abilities, though it only has few of the
host’s memories and none of its skills (the
spirit retains its own skills of course). A hybrid
form spirit has Immunity to Normal Weapons
(p. 288, SR4), but loses the ability to assume
an Astral Form (p. 287, SR4). The inhabited
body exhibits signs of the spirit’s takeover, as
the merger physically warps the vessel with
visible telltales of the spirit’s own nature (see
Spotting Spirits, p. 95). The spirit is under no
obligation to return to its metaplane of origin
if/when its services are banished away and will
simply persist as an uncontrolled spirit indefinitely.
Unlike possession spirits, hybrid form
merges can operate a direct neural interface
and the host’s cyberware (if any) continues to
function for the spirit.
Flesh Form
A spirit which attains a good merge with
its vessel becomes a near perfect flesh form.
The combined entity retains all of the memories,
abilities, and skills (both Active and
Knowledge) of the host, and its appearance
is virtually indistinguishable from that of the
original vessel. A flesh form spirit is a dualnatured
creature (p. 287, SR4), has Immunity
to Normal Weapons (p. 288, SR4), any of the
vessel’s natural and augmented abilities, and
also gains the powers of Realistic Form (p. 102)
and Aura Masking (p. 98).

So really, it depends on how well the inhabitation was pulled off..... hybrid forms boost the host body by their force, while the true form only allows the spirit to stay in this realm... the host body is completely destroyed. Flesh form basically becomes the original host's form, gains a few advantages, but not the addition of force to the host body stats... I don't believe it was a simple omission either as they are pretty specific on just what the flesh form gains and keeps (namely the ITNW, realistic form, and aura masking)

[Crimsondude]

Yes.

Sadly, the Wasp Flesh Form soldiers in Artifacts Unbound were the first ones to be statted in SR4.

[Ryo]

Yes.

Sadly, the Wasp Flesh Form soldiers in Artifacts Unbound were the first ones to be statted in SR4.

So they do get a bonus to their physical stats based on force? I don't have Artifacts Unbound.

[martinchaen]

Ryo In my interpretation, no.

You have to differentiate between Inhabitation and Possession; only Inhabitation results in True Form, Hybrid, and Flesh Form merges, Possession does not.

A Spirit using the Possession power on a Living Vessel and succeeding in its Force x 2 vs the vessel's INT+WIL results in the spirit Possessing the vessel, and the Spirit's Force is added to the vessels Physical attributes only for the duration of the Possession.

A Spirit using the Inhabitation power on a vessel (with the help of a Magician) and succeeding in it's Force x 2 vs vessels INT+WIL (after the Force x days preparation time) will always, and permanently, Inhabit the vessel as long as the Spirit doesn't roll a glitch. It'll be as a True Form, Hybrid, or Flesh Form depending on the dice roll.

Physical attributes of Inhabited vessels are only augmented in the case of hybrid forms, as per page 100 of Street Magic. Neither True Form or Flesh Form merges gain these bonuses.

In short, a Flesh Form gains Immunity To Natural Weapons (like the Hybrid), and also gains Realistic Form and Aura Masking, whereas the Hybrid gains the boost to Physical stats instead of the latter.

[Ryo]

Ryo In my interpretation, no.

You have to differentiate between Inhabitation and Possession; only Inhabitation results in True Form, Hybrid, and Flesh Form merges, Possession does not.

A Spirit using the Possession power on a Living Vessel and succeeding in its Force x 2 vs the vessel's INT+WIL results in the spirit Possessing the vessel, and the Spirit's Force is added to the vessels Physical attributes only for the duration of the Possession.

A Spirit using the Inhabitation power on a vessel (with the help of a Magician) and succeeding in it's Force x 2 vs vessels INT+WIL (after the Force x days preparation time) will always, and permanently, Inhabit the vessel as long as the Spirit doesn't roll a glitch. It'll be as a True Form, Hybrid, or Flesh Form depending on the dice roll.

Physical attributes of Inhabited vessels are only augmented in the case of hybrid forms, as per page 100 of Street Magic. Neither True Form or Flesh Form merges gain these bonuses.

In short, a Flesh Form gains Immunity To Natural Weapons (like the Hybrid), and also gains Realistic Form and Aura Masking, whereas the Hybrid gains the boost to Physical stats instead of the latter.

That doesn't really make sense though, since that would make a Hybrid superior to a Flesh Form, when everything about it makes it sound like an imperfect inhabitation. It seems to me that Inhabitation spirits are either aiming for True Form or Flesh Form, with Hybrid being the 'bad' result if they botch the attempt. So why would Hybrid be the strongest one?

I might have to track down Artifacts Unbound.

[Reaver]

which one is "best" is a matter of opinion.

you want a sneaky infiltrator that can spy on the "enemy" (in this case, the mortal world) then a hybred form is definitely worse.

you want guardian, shocktrooper, protector? then Hybred is the perfect choice.



Remember, most spirits with the inhabitation power are very alien.. (shedim, bug spirits, Loa, etc) and their true goals are hard to fathom.

[Ryo]

A friend of mine showed me his copy of Artifacts Unbound and it does in fact look like Flesh Forms have enhanced physical stats.

Body 8, Agility 9, Reaction 9, Strength 8, Charisma 5, Intuition 5, Logic 5, Willpower 5, Magic 5. Consistent with a Force 5 spirit in a body that had 3s and 4s in their physicals.

[martinchaen]

Think of it this way:
The "higher" the form, the more of the spirit is retained.

The True Form is the Spirit retaining nearly all its essence, and it is now able to materialize.

The Hybrid retains a mix of the spirit and the vessel.

The Flesh Form retains more of the vessel than the spirit.

This is represented by the dice roll on the Inhabitation test. Vessel gets more hits: flesh form . Spirit gets more hits: true form. Less than 2 die difference: tie.

And yes, a Hybrid might seem superiour, but as Reaver pointed out that depends on your point of view. True, Hybrid, and Flesh Forms have different uses. A weak spirit Inhabiting a strong vessel will more likely than not result in a a Flesh Form. A strong spirit Inhabiting a weak vessel will more likely result in a True Form.

Depending on what the Spirit wants, it would choose it's vessel accordingly (with the help of a participating magician).

[Reaver]

Lets wait to see what Crimson has to say, as a writer for SR, he would have more insight (hopefully) then we do.