[Companero]

I have a mage who uses Mindprobe all the time - I don't mind this at all, he spent the karma - but i'm wondering about different ways to deal with it.

I assume competent organisations enforce information discipline - underlings just don't get told stuff - and couriers are selected for high willpower, etc. But I can't think of many other options NPCs might use to deal with it, if they expect it. What might they do?

[Insaniac99]

Strict regulations on not having physical contact with the workers (matrix meetings, meetings behind 1-way glass)?

Cops could also start searching for the "mind-raper". Anyone who just got mind probed knows it automatically and won't be happy.

[firebug]

Hmm...  Well, yes, information discipline is the first and best response, for sure.  And really it's par for the course in Shadowrun.  Your PCs don't use real names, nor does Mr. Johnson, who will never tell you anything you don't need to know in order to get the job done... 

A courier won't know what they're carrying, either, especially if they're transferring a file stored in a datalock installed on their head.  They have to be apprehended before it can be hacked since it has no wireless.  Otherwise, if they're a runner, checking out your cargo is often a bad idea.  If you're breaking that supposed "client confidentiality agreement" then you will likely be paid less, your reputation will suffer a huge drop, and you might even find yourself on a hit list somewhere.

Off my head though, if I was trying to be more proactive about magical mind-reading, anything that protects against normal magic works.  Tinted windows on cars are said to come standard, and Insaniac's suggestion of not having physical contact with workers is likely already happens since traveling physically a lot is expensive and important individuals don't need to risk their lives by being seen in the open.

Plus like he said, you always know you've been probed.  So honestly, just upping the astral security in an area and telling the guards to immediately go on full alert when mind probed -that is, "we are looking for a criminal who does this, you are no longer required to use non-lethal measures" levels of full alert - could be enough.

I guess what the biggest thing is to illustrate that if he's not careful with who he mind probes, he'll be leaving a pretty huge trail.  Plus, if there's any awakened security around, remember that astral tracking exists.  He'll have to take a few Complex Actions after each Mind Probe or else he'll risk being simply tracked to his location...  Which is less easy to do when Mind Probe explicitly states that the target is aware of the mind-reading attempt, meaning it'll be a few combat turns of the guards searching for him.

I realize a lot of this sounds like a sort of player-punishment, which I know you're not going for, but there's no better way to up the difficulty of a scenario than showing that actions have consequences.  It adds a lot of depth and decision making when the players know they can't just use the easiest solution without risking some serious backlash, and it encourages them to be more selective and creative with their execution.

[Michael Chandra]

If I recall correctly, there's a section about mental manipulation spells in the Missions FAQ, it can be used as some decent advice.

[Beaumis]

First of all, using mind probe is a choice and choices have consequences.

Victims of mindrape will quite simply feel violated and respond accordingly. This ranges from hiding out of shame, over reporting the incident to the proper authorities, to raising hell to get back at the violator. This is intensified by the kind of information extracted. People will likely keep their personal problems personal, but when a mindrape revealed sensitive corporate data that ruins the victims career on top of the violation, your victim just became as motivated as they come... .

There are a few mechanical things people like to skip with this spell, so lets make sure we have those down:

This spell allows the subject to telepathically probe the mind of a specific target within range of the sense (chosen when the spell is cast).

(1)The target is aware of the probing, though they may not know the source of the spell.

(2)The number of net hits you get on the spell determines what kind of information the subject can read, given on the table.

(3)The subject may probe for one piece of information per Complex Action while the spell is sustained.

(4)Additional uses of Mind Probe against the same target within a number of hours equal to the target’s Willpower inflict a –2 dice pool modifier on the Spellcasting attempt.
(P. 287 Core)

(1) The victim is automatically aware that it is being mindraped and mindrape is a touch spell. That means unless the victim is already bound, gagged, unconcious or otherwise fully subdued, it will try to break the touch and thereby disrupt the spell. (By pure instinct, something bad touches you, you try to break the touch.)

(2) Victims resist with willpower + logic. An average human will have one or two hits. That means to be able to get more than surface thoughts, you need 4 to 6 hits to get the 3 nethits required. That means force 4 to 6. For a high powered corporate guy or someone whose life or well being depends on the information staying secret, edge might be a reasonable option.
Note that the amount of nethits will directly influence how violated the victim feels.

(3) This is the big one. In order to make the most out of the spell, you need time and lots of it. To make sure you get what you want, you need to take your victim prisoner at least for a short time.

(4) It gets consecutively harder to probe.

I could be wrong on this, but all the "mind wipe" drugs that were in 4th edition haven't been introduced in 5th so far. This means that unless you want to leave one hell of a motivated loose end, mindrape is a spell reserved for people you are going to kill anyway. In which case its a quicker version of the goold ol' torch to the groin.

A mage who uses this spell casually will very quickly find himself being the object of a lot of hatred.

[martinchaen]

I'm curious about the mention of requiring physically touching the target of the Mind Probe, Insaniac and Beaumis.

As we read the rules for Detection spells, you don't actually need to touch the subject to be probed. Allow me to explain our reasoning.

Detection spells give the subject a new sense (beyond the normal five) or improve a sense the subject already has, for as long as they are sustained. Detection spells may be cast upon yourself or on another subject within touch range. The standard range of the sense a Detection spell grants is the spell’s Force x caster’s Magic in meters as a radius from the target of the spell. Extended-range detection spells have a Force x Magic x 10 meter range.

Note that this specifies a "standard range" of the sense used with detection spells. To us, the "may be cast upon yourself or on another subject within touch range" identifies who the recipient of the enhanced sense may be, not the target of the spell. Furthermore:

Using the extra or enhanced sense may require the subject to Observe in Detail as a Simple Action. Detection spells are either directional (like normal sight), area effect (work in all directions at once, like hearing), or psychic (providing some other special sense such as telepathy or precognition).
The sense is either active, requiring special efforts or actions to use, or passive, meaning it enhances the abilities of those affected without them having to take separate actions.

Again, this indicates that the sense that is enhanced (or granted) has a range and direction beyond just touch. This is further corroborated by most of the spell descriptions for Detection spells, as they nearly all state that the spell works "within range of the sense" and some further clarifies that the sense is "chosen when the spell is cast", or words to that effect.

Let's take Mind Probe as an example.

Mind Probe
Active, Directional
Type:M
Range: T
Duration: S
Drain: F
This spell allows the subject to telepathically probe the mind of a specific target within range of the sense (chosen when the spell is cast). The target is aware of the probing, though they may not know the source of the spell.

The spell is Active, meaning it requires "special efforts or actions to use", and Directional, meaning it is "like normal sight".

Why state "within range of the sense (chosen when the spell is cast)", if it was truly limited to Touch range? Our table reads the description of Detection spells as follows:
1. The caster states that Mind Probe is being cast
2. The caster chooses the target (recipient) of the spell; this target has to be within touch range, and can be the caster or someone else
3. The target of the spell chooses the sense to be enhanced (sight, hearing, touch, etc)
4. The caster rolls Spellcasting + Magic [Force], and notes the number of hits
5. The target of the spell chooses the "specific target within range of the sense" (which is limited to Force x Magic meters as per the general description of detection spells) chosen in step 3
6. The target chosen in step 5 rolls Willpower + Logic (+ Counterspelling) [Mental] to resist
7. Net hits of the opposed test determines the amount of information gained

This also meshes, to our table, with the description of Mind Probe that states that the target is aware of the probing, but not necessarily the source of the spell. If you had to establish physical contact with the target, you'd have to resort to palming or similar to go unnoticed as you bumped into the person on the street, which hardly seems appropriate.

Anyway, just wanted to bring to light that at least to our table, many Detection spells do not require the caster to touch the subject, and we believe this is both RAW and RAI.

[MadBear]

I have to agree, all the other Detection spells list 'Touch' as a range, and what's the point of Detect Enemies if you can only detect enemies you can touch? No, I think that refers to determine the 'subject' of the spell, which is referred to in the spell description. The Subject is the one doing the probing, and the Target is the one getting mind raped. That tells me it does not have to be the caster doing the probing. So, range is directional and determined by Force.
As for curtailing use of the spell, I second what everyone else said: consequences.

[Grahm]

The difficulty is a big thing - if they need 3-6 net hits, high force is necessary.
Another thing is limited utility - if the players use mind probe a lot, this means one of two things:
(1) Mind probe is a common risk - all sorts of steps are taken to protect against it.  No information remaining accurate for more than a shift or something.  Regular checks. It happens to the players.
(2) it is not common precisely because of the stigma and the danger it poses to corporations.  The fact that the mage does it or has done it WILL get out.  It's a rule in shadowrun.  NOTHING stays secret.  Some teammate will mention it, some mage will catch your aura, some camera will catch incriminating stuff.  Persecution is common.  If the mage starts having landlords kick him out, contacts hesitating to talk to him, people firebombing his house, and such.  He might tone it down.

I think the point about corporations being really paranoid is a good point.  They don't know what you learned and they don't know exactly what all drones MIGHT have happened to know or learn.  As a result, you are instantly an unknown danger, the worst and most hunted kind. 

Hit squad shows up at your house because you used the spell on someone who knew something really important.  Oh, and you didn't learn that piece of information, but you're dead if you don't share it with this rival corp offering to help you.  Good luck!

Aside: remember you leave traces after casting a spell. OTHER casters can identify your signature.

[Beaumis]

I'm curious about the mention of requiring physically touching the target of the Mind Probe, Insaniac and Beaumis.

Frankly, it never occurred to me to be otherwise since I have played it as touch range for 20 years, but that's not the rules. It seems you are correct that it does not require touch range. There are some problems in the way you presented the spell though.

3. The target of the spell chooses the sense to be enhanced (sight, hearing, touch, etc)

This spell allows the subject to telepathically probe  the mind of a specific target within range of the sense  (chosen when the spell is cast).
P. 287 Core

Mind Probe outright states that it is telepathic, so the choice cannot refer to the sense. Therefore, it must refer to the target. This means that while the magician can hand over control of the mind probe to another person (weirdness), that person can probe only one target, determined by the magician at the time of the casting.

The target of the spell chooses the "specific target within range of the sense" (which is limited to Force x Magic meters as per the general description of detection spells) chosen in step 3

As above, the target is determined by the magician, not the subject.

7. Net hits of the opposed test determines the amount of information gained

I'm sure you meant the right thing, but this is important so I want to point it out anyway. The net hits determine the quality of the information and where they come from. (Conscious & subconscious) The amount of information is determined by how long the spell is sustained. This is what makes the spell so powerful and dangerous. Once you are in with sufficient net hits, there is nothing the target can keep from you. You can read his entire life if you want to.

[martinchaen]

Beaumis
I don't get how you read the description being telepathic being anything except fluff, when the classification of the spell clearly states it is both Active and Directional, both of which are clearly defined in the earlier rules. The sense is chosen (most likely visual), and the subject can choose which target to mindprobe.

Furthermore, the sense is bestowed upon the subject/target of the spell; it is not stated anywhere that the magician has to choose the target to be mindprobed.

Net hits do determine the "depth" of the information determined, I stand by this statement as an abbreviated and simplified form of what happens. There's more to it, sure, but isn't there always. I was summarizing.

[Beaumis]

I don't get how you read the description being telepathic being anything except fluff, when the classification of the spell clearly states it is both Active and Directional, both of which are clearly defined in the earlier rules. The sense is chosen (most likely visual), and the subject can choose which target to mindprobe.

Because neither active nor directional defines the sense. They define limitations. (Case in point. Clairaudience passively enhances/changes hearing, yet it is directional. Hearing however is mentioned after the description of area. If this were anything other than an example, we would have a huge contradiction here.)

The vast majority of detection spells make no mention what sense they enhance nor do they state you can pick one.

Analyze Device: "the sense"
Analyze Magic: "the sense"
Analyze Truth: Must hear the statement
Clairaudience: Hearing
Clairvoyance: Sight
Combat Sense: no mention of a sense (mentions subconcious analysis)
Detect Enemies: no mention of a sense
Detect Individual: "the sense"
Detect Life: "the sense"
Detect Magic: "the sense"
Detect Object: "the sense"
Mindlink: no mention of a sense (mentions mental communication)
Minkprobe: "the sense" (mentions telepathy)

There are many spells that speak of "the sense" but only mind probe contains the sentence "(chosen when the spell is cast)". Only three spells mention a target. Analyze Truth which clearly defines that the target needs to be the speaker, combat sense which is an area spell and defines targets as entities with hostile intentions and mind probe, which says "specific target within range of the sense (chosen when the spell is cast)".

Assume for a second you were correct and evaluate that claim. Humans have five senses: sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell. By your interpretation, I could mind probe a victim based on either of these senses. I can smell through walls I cannot see through. I can hear through walls. I can hear and smell around corners without line of sight. Not only would this break the magical theory of connection of auras, but Mind Probe also happens to be a mana spell. They can't create physical effects. Yet, only physical effect spells (read: indirect combat spells) do not require aura synchronization.

As cool as the notion of a mind probing magician going "I smell your thoughts" is, its also a ridiculous notion.

[Dakka]

References to "the sense" mean the spell itself.  It makes no mention of which sense is enhanced because it doesn't enhance a sense, it adds one.  Except for Claraudiance and Clairvoyance which allow you to use an existing sense at a distance most other detection spells add a sixth sense.  You don't see or hear someone's thoughts, you just percieve them through your Mindprobe sense.  Your brain interprets the data as if it were one of your senses.  If you mind probe a guy about his love of bacon saying "I smell your thoughts" isn't so ridiculous.  Also (chosen when the spell is cast) may refer to "target" not "sense" which would make a lot more sense.  Mindprobe is cast on yourself against a target within range of the sense.

[martinchaen]

And if you read further up, as I pointed out earlier, "the sense" is defined under the general rules for detection spells.

The direction, if you will, of the sense is exactly what defines it;
"Detection spells are either directional (like normal sight), area effect (work in all directions at once, like hearing), or psychic (providing some other special sense such as telepathy or precognition)."

Directional Spells (i.e. like normal sight)
Analyze Device, Analyze Magic, Analyze Truth, Clairaudience, Clairvoiance, Mind Probe

Area (omnidirectional, like hearing; includes all "extended" versions, though these are not specifically listed)
Detect Enemies, Detect Individual, Detect Life, Detect [Life Form], Detect Magic, Detect [Object]

Psychic (all other senses not specified in the two previous, including other senses than the "normal" five (six?) a human has)
Combat Sense, Mindlink

This means that Directional spells, such as Clairaudience since you pointed this one out, requires you to focus on hearing FROM a particular physical point; it does not work on the hearing sense in general because it doesn't work on the crowd all around you. Additionally, since it is an Active spell, you may have to take an actual Observe in Detail action to use the added sense. Same thing with Analyze Truth; you have to focus on A statement, as opposed to learning if ALL statements around you were true if it was Area instead of Directional.

The examples used, "like normal sight", "like hearing", are just that; general examples. They do not provide the answer to all questions, particularly since specific rules can override general ones.

In the case of Mind Probe, you don't get to probe everyone around you (similar to the psychic Danger Sense spell), nor can you communicate with the target (like with Mind Link); it is a single, directed read of a specific target (and nowhere in the rules does it state that you have to specify the subject when the spell is cast).

For simplicy, let's break down the word "target" into two parts for the purpose of the spell Mind Probe
1. Target, recipient of sense
2. Target, subject of probing

These two can clearly be different.

And yes, I fully believe Mind Probe can be used to target the subject of probing through sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell. The latter three won't be very useful since a) you'd have to be very close to touch or taste the subject of the probing, and b) most humans do not have an incredibly refined sense of smell to the point where you could reliably pick out your target based on smell. Does this stop you from trying? No. Does it make it a Good Idea (TM)? No.

And Detection spells are different from Mana spells. You are enhancing a sense, to my mind there's no need for line of sight or your Danger Sense would not work; you're applying two different principles (direct combat spells and active, directional detection spells) to one paradigm, and that just doesn't work because the rules are not applied that way.

[EDIT]
I will concede that the "chosen when the spell is cast" is ambiguous, as Dakka points out.

It could refer to the sense being chosen, or the "target within range of the sense", which for Active spells would most likely be vision.

[Dakka]

Needing some kind of link to have magic affect a target LOS is the most likely, although a blindfolded magician who was touching his target should be able to cast mindprobe on himself and sense the targets thoughts as well.

[Beaumis]

Either you are contradicting yourself or I'm simply not getting what you are trying to say.

We have established that the subject of the spell and the target of the probing can apparently be different by RAW.
We have established that detection spells either enhance a sense or grant a new one.

By RAW the only difference between active and passive is that the former involves an opposed test to give you any information while the later changes a limit. (That and what allows counterspelling.)
Directional and Area define where an object needs to be in order to be perceived. Psychic on the other hand defines how a target is perceived.

When I said that "the sense" as referred is undefined, I mean that it is not specifically stated what sense is used. Analyze Truth and Analyze Magic are both directional and active, however while Analyze Truth clearly states you need to hear what is being said, Analyze Magic does not make any such statement. Do I have to see the object in question? Or touch it? Is smell enough? Will either suffice or just one? My point is, we do not know because the rules do not give that answer.

You believe that the line "chosen when the spell is cast" refers to the sense and not to the target. I disagree and propose that the choice refers to the target. I have given my reasoning for this: the lack of precedence and the breach of traditional magical theory. At the very least, it is ambiguous.