[WellsIDidIt]

No, but we know what is needed for a gun to fire, both using traditional cased ammunition and using caseless ammunition that is electronically fired.

How the smartgun works is irrelevant to the situation.

[RHat]

No, but we know what is needed for a gun to fire, both using traditional cased ammunition and using caseless ammunition that is electronically fired.

How the smartgun works is irrelevant to the situation.

It might be.  It might not be.  Are you saying there there's absolutely no possible way for it to work that might interfere with the normal mechanical operation of the weapon, even though clearly things to cause the relevant mechanical events must all be present?  Remember that bricked isn't just "doesn't work", bricked is "catastrophic failure".  It's not simply the device not doing what it's supposed to, but rather the device failing in such a manner that it can't do a damn thing.  Hell, even accepting your assumption that you know of every possible way in which a device 61 years in the future could possibly interface with a firearm constructed 61 years into the future, it could well be that bricking the device damages the mechanical side too; that is, when the gun is bricked your firing pin might actually get broken or otherwise rendered inoperable as a result.

[MaxKojote]

"Smoke, sparks, pops, bangs, sizzles, nasty smells, and occasionally even small fires are
common features of a device in the process of becoming a brick."
-SR5 P228

I imagine said noticeable damage could feasibly spread toward the mechanical components. Particularly the 'small fires' portion. I suppose it's better than the device exploding.

[Namikaze]

Catalyst really needs to have people that actually understand tech review the areas of the book they have knowledge in.  It's pretty clear SR rules are often written by authors who have limited (or no) understanding of even current technology in the areas they are writing about.

The technology is technology that FASA invented, which has been changed repeatedly over the last several decades.  The game takes place over a hundred years in the future.  You're telling me that in the early 18th century, people could have reasonably predicted cell phones, cars, nuclear weaponry and fully-automatic weapons?  Sometimes the science doesn't make sense, but the fiction does.  This is one of those cases.

Consider the fact that the world is incredibly dystopian.  What would be better for a corporation than the ability to disarm those that rise up against it?  There's evidence of this in the 4th edition fluff, when discussing the Smart Safety System.  Your very food has the ability to be used to track your location, diet, and shopping habits...  why would a gun that has electronic firing, wireless communication, and such be so far-fetched?  And FYI, all guns can have wireless turned off, which makes them immune to hacking and thus immune to bricking.  If you must have your gun wireless for some reason, you can always slave it to your Decker's PAN and run it silently so that the enemy has to get through your Decker first.

[WellsIDidIt]

Some is FASA, but much of the issues are new to SR4 and 5.

As for looking at the future. SR was created in the late '80s and predicting about the 2050s. So, a reasonable questions would be if people in the 1910-1920 era could have made those predictions, and science fiction tells us yes, some did. Where you get comparing it to the 1700s I have no idea.

I imagine said noticeable damage could feasibly spread toward the mechanical components. Particularly the 'small fires' portion. I suppose it's better than the device exploding.

I've watched guns catch on fire and still operate just fine. Very few of them are fragile. The thing is containing explosions to propel bullets. Remember that.

It might be.  It might not be.  Are you saying there there's absolutely no possible way for it to work that might interfere with the normal mechanical operation of the weapon, even though clearly things to cause the relevant mechanical events must all be present?  Remember that bricked isn't just "doesn't work", bricked is "catastrophic failure".  It's not simply the device not doing what it's supposed to, but rather the device failing in such a manner that it can't do a damn thing.  Hell, even accepting your assumption that you know of every possible way in which a device 61 years in the future could possibly interface with a firearm constructed 61 years into the future, it could well be that bricking the device damages the mechanical side too; that is, when the gun is bricked your firing pin might actually get broken or otherwise rendered inoperable as a result.

I'm saying that if the gun is designed with the tiniest bit of intelligence there wouldn't be a way to destroy it by bricking the electronics. Just the slightest bit of intelligent design would separate the electronic bits from the trigger mechanism so that one is not directly connected to the other. Brick the smart gun, oh yay, you lost one connection to the firing pin. As for destroying the firing pin, I guess it totally makes sense for each one to have a self destruct charge on it with "In case of brick" printed on it. Oh wait, it really doesn't. Look at trigger mechanisms over the past one hundred years and you'll see a pattern. They're becoming more and more resilient. More and more reliable. More and more stable, with better backups and better redundancies.

So, I'm supposed to believe that in sixty years they're supposed to be as fragile as a smartphone because....it totally makes sense? No, it doesn't make sense. It's a poor justification for a bad rule that someone though was cool.

[Medicineman]

I've watched guns catch on fire and still operate just fine. Very few of them are fragile. The thing is containing explosions to propel bullets. Remember that.

thats Today's Guns !
Shadowrun Guns contain a lot more electronic (from Electronic firing to Ammo Count etc) and are supposedly way more fragile.
Bricking them is (ImO) more catastophical.
a purely mechanical revolver couldn'tnt/shouldn't be Wireless ! (never getting any Bonus nor be brickable)
....ooo(but then on the other hand there's also wireless throwing knives in SR5....)

with a wireless Dance
Medicineman

[RHat]

I've watched guns catch on fire and still operate just fine. Very few of them are fragile. The thing is containing explosions to propel bullets. Remember that.

Which precludes the idea of being disabled by some particular form of damage how?

It might be.  It might not be.  Are you saying there there's absolutely no possible way for it to work that might interfere with the normal mechanical operation of the weapon, even though clearly things to cause the relevant mechanical events must all be present?  Remember that bricked isn't just "doesn't work", bricked is "catastrophic failure".  It's not simply the device not doing what it's supposed to, but rather the device failing in such a manner that it can't do a damn thing.  Hell, even accepting your assumption that you know of every possible way in which a device 61 years in the future could possibly interface with a firearm constructed 61 years into the future, it could well be that bricking the device damages the mechanical side too; that is, when the gun is bricked your firing pin might actually get broken or otherwise rendered inoperable as a result.

I'm saying that if the gun is designed with the tiniest bit of intelligence there wouldn't be a way to destroy it by bricking the electronics. Just the slightest bit of intelligent design would separate the electronic bits from the trigger mechanism so that one is not directly connected to the other. Brick the smart gun, oh yay, you lost one connection to the firing pin. As for destroying the firing pin, I guess it totally makes sense for each one to have a self destruct charge on it with "In case of brick" printed on it. Oh wait, it really doesn't. Look at trigger mechanisms over the past one hundred years and you'll see a pattern. They're becoming more and more resilient. More and more reliable. More and more stable, with better backups and better redundancies.

So, I'm supposed to believe that in sixty years they're supposed to be as fragile as a smartphone because....it totally makes sense? No, it doesn't make sense. It's a poor justification for a bad rule that someone though was cool.

"Destroy" and "disable" are two very, very, very different things.  And if a tech function puts something near the firing pin, as an example, the catastrophic failure of that component could cause problems for the firing pin.

[WellsIDidIt]

Electronic Firing doesn't really have anything to do with it. There are caseless weapons today where the CPU controlling the electronic charge can be destroyed and the gun still puts out a single pulse when you pull the trigger. The CPU is only there to recurse the pulse if the firing mode calls for it. Sure, SR could do it differently, but it would be dumb to make it fundamentally flawed and worse.

Electronic or not, the firing pin/pulser has to be able to withstand the pressure and heat from the explosion that propels the bullet. It cannot be fragile and still function at all. Displaying ammo count (digitally) can be done today with the right magazines.

I can see bricking the ammo count, DNI interface, firing modes, etc. I can't see bricking the physical "I pull the trigger, you go boom" part of the equation though. It just makes no sense. I very seriously feel that it's about as logical as hacking the buttons on clothes to be unable to unbutton. Or throwing knives to not leave my hand (I guess that would make sense if they have gecko grip).

"Destroy" and "disable" are two very, very, very different things.  And if a tech function puts something near the firing pin, as an example, the catastrophic failure of that component could cause problems for the firing pin.

Sure, if its more powerful than the bullet going off, which seems unlikely unless the gun was specifically designed to be destroyed in that manner. That's pretty much the point here. The guns would have to specifically be designed to be that bad, because it makes no sense otherwise, and it makes no sense for them to be designed that bad.

[RHat]

"Destroy" and "disable" are two very, very, very different things.  And if a tech function puts something near the firing pin, as an example, the catastrophic failure of that component could cause problems for the firing pin.

Sure, if its more powerful than the bullet going off, which seems unlikely unless the gun was specifically designed to be destroyed in that manner. That's pretty much the point here. The guns would have to specifically be designed to be that bad, because it makes no sense otherwise, and it makes no sense for them to be designed that bad.

The force involved isn't the only factor - the position is important too.  And we might not be talking about an explosion, either - if something warps the firing pin, or causes it to become sufficiently misaligned, that would have the same sort of effect.

[redwolf]

o.k  so my 2 cent when agun is brick the safty is on. naw hold on, in today guns a safty can be a decocker and with that on you can not fire. so if it is locked in place the triger move but nothing hapen and you got a brick in your hands

[Michael Chandra]

The trigger device may not be a mechanical trigger any longer, but an electric current delivered to the bullet's primer.

Correct, that's a possible modification, not a standard thing.

[WellsIDidIt]

The force involved isn't the only factor - the position is important too.  And we might not be talking about an explosion, either - if something warps the firing pin, or causes it to become sufficiently misaligned, that would have the same sort of effect.

And, if you've been following the conversation, weapon designers have already learned from that mistake. Did weapon designer in 2075 all magically forget about every design flaw in the past 200 years? That doesn't seem logical either.

You can't put your parts behind the firing pin or their getting shattered during operation. If it's on the side of the firing pin, their has to be a metal shield that is powerful enough to handle the pressure from the chamber. Your electronics would have to heat up hotter than the explosion in the chamber does. Not really logical unless it's designed to do that.

You keep coming up with excuses, but everyone involves the weapon being specifically designed to be flawed with issues that we have already learned are bad today.

I'm not really seeing the safety as reasonable either. Every single gun would have to be designed to be flawed in the same way for that to be viable. Again, that's really bad reasoning. It's again a case of, it is because it is, which is running rampant in SR 5 and bad game design.

[Kincaid]

I'm not really seeing the safety as reasonable either. Every single gun would have to be designed to be flawed in the same way for that to be viable. Again, that's really bad reasoning. It's again a case of, it is because it is, which is running rampant in SR 5 and bad game design.

I think you're conflating bad gun design with bad game design.  It probably is bad gun design, although if guns are supposed to have unique AROs, then an bricked gun shouldn't be able to fire in the mind Big Brother--you know, for your own safety.  From a design standpoint, "Everything has a price."  If you want the nifty wireless bonus, then you need to allow a certain amount of exposure to Matrix shenanigans, which has the added bonus of giving the decker something to do.

[WellsIDidIt]

No, it's bad design on both parts. Good design is explained in a way that makes logical sense. Having all the firearm manufacturers magically forget the design flaws they've already discovered is bad game design. One of the most important parts of writing is research.

As for bricking the ARO, I can see it shutting down a civilian designed gun like a hunting rifle or even a target pistol, but a combat designed weapon. There is no way. Logical design would just bypass the wireless abilities until fixed. My thermostat can be controlled manually or through my smartphone. If the wireless card bricks, which it has, I can still control it manually. If my $60 thermostat now can be designed intelligently, then I see no reason for combat grade weaponry of the future not to be designed intelligently.

As for everything has a price, that's a fair point if the price makes sense and the reasoning makes sense. Most wireless bonuses fail on second count.

[Medicineman]

Did weapon designer in 2075 all magically forget about every design flaw in the past 200 years? That doesn't seem logical either.

Apparently ! As well as any military Intelligence or Secret Agencies as they all depend upon Wireless Fidelity in the SR5 Universe.
The Basic Idea of WiFi was a good one, but the Ingame Implementation (as well as most of the Crunch) failed badly

....(ImO)

HokaHey
Medicineman