[Zilfer]

Movement in the normal game improved, certainly.  However, we're talking about movement for people playing with miniatures and maps.

Indeed which is the boat I'm in.... Not sure where the disconnect is? I just flip over my square map to a hex map and they count out everytime they move a hex, and once they reach that 'magic' number they get the modifier.... that's why i'm particularly confused....

[Namikaze]

Can you describe your system in more detail?  How do you determine the magic number?

[Zilfer]

Can you describe your system in more detail?  How do you determine the magic number?

So I believe in the book it says agility x2, and then agility x4.

So if I have Agility 5 that's 10m before I am 'running' and 20m before I am 'sprinting'. Take in mind I am JUST getting into 5e so I might be totally wrong about numbers here. xD take it with a grain of salt but the way we played it last night was.

Air port! Guys pull guns ready to shoot! Initiative!

First up some stand and shoot, while another party member moves towards a far away one to close the distance a bit so they take less of a penalty . Say it is 4m to move up to the 'short range -1' area. So that person records his movement for future action phases. He is not considered running yet so no modifiers.

Next Action Phase he's roarin and ready to go because the mage mind controlled 3 guys by mob control but took 6 stun in Drain and someone lit him up doing 10 Stun to knock him completely out! Guy is ready to get up in said man's face for a no penalty.

He moves 10m this turn making a total of 14m move in this Combat turn. He now has the running modifier of -2 to shoot, and +2 to defense rolls, however he 'lost' the -1 from the distance so he's still at -1 for THIS turn.

His next action phase comes up and he killed the enemy with his last action phase. So now he's going to run and help his friends who are fighting the other way. He has 4m left of movement left so he moves that and realizes he's at 20m his max now and cannot move any further without taking a complex action to run. He decides it's more important getting over there than taking a long distance shot with a large penalty and since he hadn't stopped firing his penalty from recoil is starting to add up. He decides to "Sprint" for extra meters....


Does that sound right? Am I doing something wrong there? It seemed to work fine... considering 1m = about 3 feet is it? or 2.5? Something like that they can actually cover quiet a considerable amount of distance in a short time.

I'm still not sure with the recoil reset if you have to "take an action" to reset recoil or just not "shoot for an action phase" to reset it.

[Namikaze]

Ah, so you're applying the penalties on turns after the Running or Sprinting has started.  That makes sense.  Hmm...  maybe we've been over complicating things. 

[Zilfer]

Ah, so you're applying the penalties on turns after the Running or Sprinting has started.  That makes sense.  Hmm...  maybe we've been over complicating things. 

Yeah I don't know that's just how I read it and I was like cool! It's simple now.

If I had 5 Agility I basically get 9m 'for free' if I want to move further than that in my first action phase then I start out "running" and I'm considered running until the next combat turn where it 'resets'.

So if I move 9m I'm walking. I move any more that combat turn then i'm "running". It's a little odd to think about for example if I move 9m and then stop don't move an action phase, then last phase I need to move to an a jointing cover now I'm "running.' Even if it's just 1m away. xD

[FasterN8]

Well part of my issue was with the RAW system allowing combatants to use a ridiculous amount of their movement (all of it) before someone just slightly behind them even got to shoot.  As has been discussed ad nauseum in older threads, it's like teleportation.  There's nothing stopping a character from using their full run rate in IP#1.

Now if you're trying to make melee combat a larger part of your game, then the RAW system certainly enables those characters to engage more easily without getting shot.

[Namikaze]

That's true, N8 but if someone uses a Sprint action and gets a bunch of hits and then uses all their movement in Action Phase 1, they can't move at all afterward.  Which can be a huge disadvantage, tactically as your opponents see you zip past and then reposition to get an angle on you.

[Xenon]

The problem with the movement in core for board movement is that when you're playing with a board, you're handling movement on a per-Action Phase basis.  The movement in the core rules is on a per-Action Turn basis...

Wait... what?
In SR5 movement happens during your action phase.
It is not spread out over the initiative pass or combat turn.
You can move up to agility x4 meters in a single action phase if you want (and have not moved yet and have a free action to spare)

(but then you would need to take a complex sprint test if you want to move any further until the end of the combat turn).


(SR5 is the most melee -and gyromount- friendly edition)


So again; what prevent you from using movement as it is stated in SR5 core...?

[Namikaze]

Wait... what?
In SR5 movement happens during your action phase.
It is not spread out over the initiative pass or combat turn.
You can move up to agility x4 meters in a single action phase if you want (and have not moved yet and have a free action to spare)
(but then you would need to take a complex sprint test if you want to move any further until the end of the combat turn).

So again; what prevent you from using movement as it is stated in SR5 core...?

I don't know why I'm having to recap the last 6 or 7 posts, but here goes......

The movement for most board-based games is done each action phase.  Basically, saying that you can move X squares or hexes per action phase.  That's traditional.  In SR, they say that you can move up to X squares or hexes over the course of an entire Combat Turn.  That's a whole different animal.  We were trying to find a good system of converting the X squares or hexes per Combat Turn into X squares or hexes per Action Phase.

After reviewing things with Zilfer, it's become apparent that the current rules can work just fine for board-based movement.  But after talking with FasterN8, it's apparent that there are still some concerns with everyone moving a LOT during the first Action Phase, and then not at all afterward.

[Xenon]

I still don't get it.

In earlier editions your movement was spread out over the entire combat turn.

In SR5 it happens instantly, when the player decide to move, during the player's action phase.
- just like it would in a board game.

Yes, you can burn all your movement in your first action phase - but then you would have no movement left and you still have to spend your free actions on "running" for the remaining of the combat turn (but you would also get -2 dice on your ranged attacks unless maybe if you have a gyromount, get +2 dice on all defense tests and everyone get -2 dice to attack you with ranged attacks until it is your turn to move again in the next combat turn).

If you want to move after you already burned all your movement you would also need to spend a complex action to take a sprint test to move a few meters during an action phase later in the combat turn (but ranged attack against a sprinting character get another -2 dice).

This is an edge case.

A more "normal" case would be that your player move maybe 5-6 meters (considered walking) in the first action phase and -depending on agility- a few more meters in his second combat turn. A melee character -or a ranged character with a gyromount- would probably want to always "run" (agility x 2 meters or more) from his first action phase and onward because of the defensive bonuses (and really no cons).

Most people have two IPs. Really wired people have more.
If you average out how much you can move per IP then wired people would move slower
(it worked in SR2 since back then wired people got multiple action phases -and oppertunities to move- before everyone else. In SR5 everyone move in the first IP even if they are very slow... wired people in SR5 get to act a few times after everyone already done their movements)

I simply don't see why you should not just stick to RAW. Shrug.

[Namikaze]

I don't see in the rules where it happens instantly.  The fact that your movement penalty applies across all of your Action Phases supports that the movement happens over the whole Combat Turn.

A character’s movement for an entire Combat Turn (meaning total movement for all Initiative Passes, not for each Initiative Pass) is based on their Run rate, which is determined by metatype. Walk rate determines the farthest a character can move during a Combat Turn before they are considered to be Running.

...

The Movement Rates (Walk and Run) for each metatype are noted on the Movement Table. This is the distance the character can move during their Combat Turn. As soon as the character exceeds their Walk rate, they are considered Running until the end of the Combat Turn and incur any penalties or benefits of running. Running characters must use a Free Action in each Initiative Pass they are considered running.

Since all of these descriptions talk about the movement taking place over the whole Combat Turn, I really don't see where you're coming from saying that the movement happens instantly.  You're saying that if a human with a 3 Agility and 2 hits on a Sprinting test wants to, they can move 16 meters in a split-second (a single Action Phase)?  That's ludicrous speed.

[Xenon]

You're saying that if a human with a 3 Agility and 2 hits on a Sprinting test wants to, they can move 16 meters in a split-second (a single Action Phase)

Yes.

[Xenon]

That is crunch. Melee can charge a target 12 meters on his first action phase; but fluff wise he is still moving during the entire combat turn.
Game mechanic wise this mean that everyone with 3 agility can move the distance during your first action phase;
no matter if you only have one IP or four IPs during the combat turn.

If you average out the 12 meters per IP then very wired people would not be able to move the full distance
- but a very slow person would. That would just be strange.....

And if you average movement over the max number of IPs during the combat turn then you have situations where you move faster per action phase in a combat with only slow people and slower per IP in combat with wired people in it. That is also really... strange.

[Namikaze]

(that is crunch. melee can charge a target 12 meters away on his first combat turn; but fluff wise he is still moving during the entire combat turn).

The problem is that board-based movement is about removing some of the fluff and focusing on crunch.

FYI, the fastest human footspeed ever recorded was 44.72 km/h, which equates to about 7m per second.  A Combat Turn is 3 seconds, so we'll say 21 meters per Combat Turn.  Augmentations and such should increase that, of course, but we're talking about a human with 3 Agility, which is average.

[Xenon]

I updated my post while you were typing.

an agility 3 character can move 4 meters per second in full combat gear and still fire a rifle
...or 5.3 meters per second if sprinting in full combat gear

an action phase is 3 seconds if you only have 1 IP (which average people have)


Sounds about right to me?