[Grend]

Just had this happen on the last session.  Team hacker managed to get enough marks on an enemy rigger's commlink for a Format Device followed by a Reboot.  I figure the rigger is hosed, but is there anyway for him to get control back of his slaved devices (his drones)?  I know that he can restore the commlink with an extended Software + Logic [Mental] 12, 1 hour test, but I was thinking something a little faster for the combat.

I have the feeling this will become a common tactic by the hacker, so wanted to get a handle on the rules.

[Xenon]

enemy rigger should probably use a RCC and not a commlink

as for your question.
not sure the only way to instruct a drone what it's on board autopilot should do is by using a commlink.
For example, I would not be opposed to the idea of instructing a drone verbally

if you have a second RCC or commlink you can form a persona on the other device (reboot both devices).
In that case you can use the backup to directly remote control, jump into or instruct the drone.

you can also jump into a drone directly using a cable (but since jumping in is raggdoll mode your drone would become rather stationary)

[WellsIDidIt]

If you are currently logged onto a commlink, it isn't a device, it's a persona.

P. 234 SR5

When is a device not a device? When it’s a persona!

P. 235 SR5

When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the Matrix until the persona jacks out.

You can't Format Device on on a Commlink that is currently a persona, because the device icon is not on the matrix to target.

[martinchaen]

Does that mean a rigger can't use Control Device on a device he's jumped into? Or does his persona remain on the RCC in that case? How does that affect the vehicle icon?

[WellsIDidIt]

I always took it to mean that the vehicle icon merges with the rigger's persona (which should already be overriding the RCC icon). So you'd have a Persona that includes both the vehicle icon and RCC icon in it.

Control Device is supposed to essentially be remote controlling the device, so I wouldn't think you could do it when you're jumped into a drone acting through pure DNI controls.

[hayek]

If you are currently logged onto a commlink, it isn't a device, it's a persona.... You can't Format Device on on a Commlink that is currently a persona, because the device icon is not on the matrix to target.

this is definitely correct. In fact, the Reboot Matrix Action says "This action only works on devices...and the only persona it works on is your own." so you definitely can't Reboot someone else's commlink.

Does that mean a rigger can't use Control Device on a device he's jumped into?

No, he cannot. There is a hierarchy of control methods, and remote control (i.e. Control Device action) cannot be used while someone is jumped into the device, as rigging is the highest priority method of control (see p. 265). Of course, when you're jumped in you can do any action you'd be able to do with Control Device.

Or does his persona remain on the RCC in that case? How does that affect the vehicle icon?

When you jump in, "your icon and the device icon merge into a single icon." (p. 266 under 'Taking the Jump'). If you put your icon onto the Matrix through your RCC in the first place, I believe the vehicle icon AND the RCC device icon would both be subsumed into your persona icon (you certainly couldn't have multiple persona icons on the Matrix). This means that if an enemy hacker wants to attack you, your RCC,  or your jumped-in vehicle on the Matrix, they will have to simply attack your persona icon. Since you originally connected to the Matrix through your RCC, you would still use it to establish your Matrix attributes.

[JackVII]

If you are currently logged onto a commlink, it isn't a device, it's a persona.

P. 234 SR5

When is a device not a device? When it’s a persona!

P. 235 SR5

When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the Matrix until the persona jacks out.

You can't Format Device on on a Commlink that is currently a persona, because the device icon is not on the matrix to target.

The problem with this rule is that it would mean that whenever you are logged into the matrix (even in AR since you have a persona in AR), if the device you are using to form your PAN is the device you are using to connect to the matrix (which would seem to be the standard), it can no longer be the master of the PAN since only devices can be part of a PAN. Some of their rules trip themselves up.

Reboot Device is interesting in that it actually calls out the device restriction specifically, while carving out an exemption for your own persona. I'm down with not being able to cheese three MARKs on a persona and then dumpshocking them immediately.

IMO, similar to the CF rules, personas should be treated as devices for the purpose of targeting with matrix actions (with applicalbe exceptions in place) and should be able to be the master in a PAN.

[hayek]

Or does his persona remain on the RCC in that case? How does that affect the vehicle icon?

Note that if an enemy hacker attacks your persona icon while you're jumped-in through an RCC, the vehicle icon is totally protected from attacks. The RCC takes any Matrix Damage you suffer, and if the RCC is bricked, you are dumped from the Matrix and suffer Dumpshock (then the vehicle isn't so protected anymore...).

Also, you don't need an RCC to control your drones. In fact, they don't even need to be slaved to any of your devices. As long as you can take the 'Send Message' Matrix action, they should recognize you as their owner and obey your commands (though if you were sending a message to them on a device you weren't the owner of, i.e. like a teammate's commlink, i'd probably require you to take an extra Send Message action to validate yourself as owner to the drone, kind of like taking time to log in with a specific password.) and i'd agree with Xenon that voice commands would probably work. i'd also argue you could send commands through a Micro-transceiver as well.

[WellsIDidIt]

The commlink, RCC, deck, etc. is still physically a device, it just has no device icon in the matrix when you're online as a persona. While it's ambiguous, it can work together. Overall, a lot of it doesn't make sense though, and I'll agree the design could definitely be improved.

[Grend]

This helps immensely.  Thank you! 

[martinchaen]

Interesting. Reading the Matrix chapter on personas, icons, devices, and PAN/WANs, I don't get the distinct impression that a devices ceases to be a device when a persona subsumes "the device's icon", however. It's grammar, I know, but it seems odd that when my street sam wants to use his implanted commlink with wireless enabled to provide an AR display and decides to also slave his smartgun to it for protection, he actually cannot do this.

Seems that these rules are either conflicting, or we're reading it too literally.

I think you're right, JackVII, getting three marks on a device and dumpshocking it's user seems a little brutal; though it'd take at least, what, two complex actions for that to happen(?), that's still mighty powerful, but I don't see way for the rules about PAN/WANs to coexist with the rules concerning Devices and Personas without either making deckers potentially very strong or severely screwing over the Master/Slave relationship. What, the solution is to carry two commlinks, one you use to access the matrix and another that just slaves all your gear?

[JackVII]

I think you're right, JackVII, getting three marks on a device and dumpshocking it's user seems a little brutal; though it'd take at least, what, two complex actions for that to happen(?), that's still mighty powerful, but I don't see way for the rules about PAN/WANs to coexist with the rules concerning Devices and Personas without either making deckers potentially very strong or severely screwing over the Master/Slave relationship. What, the solution is to carry two commlinks, one you use to access the matrix and another that just slaves all your gear?

While an item (even a throwback for instance) is a device in layman's terms. I've always read the references to devices in the Matrix section as how it is defined there: "[a] device in the Matrix is any wireless device in the real world." Which works fine until the text that WellsIDidIt quoted where a device isn't a device when it is a persona.

The whole rebooting someone else's persona is already taken care of in the Reboot Device description. It is explicitly disallowed.

Personally, I think they should just rewrite that PAN section to make it look more like the WAN section (i.e. "In a PAN, the slaves must be devices, and the master must be a device or persona"). That would also solve the question of whether you can slave your deck to a commlink for the Firewall.

[Grend]

enemy rigger should probably use a RCC and not a commlink

My reasoning for this was that a Commlink gives a higher firewall for a lower cost,  he does not have a ton of cash for a RCC, and that noise reduction was not a huge concern because he was in his home territory.   His main function is as a spider, monitoring cameras and such.  He's a low prof rating npc, so does not have the resources of a pc.

[WellsIDidIt]

The problem you're having is that device is used in two ways in the chapter. There is a Device in the matrix, and there is a physical device. PANs are made up of physical devices. Persona's replace matrix devices. The easiest way to see how it works is to replace device (in relation to a device in the matrix) with device icon.

So you can slave your physical smartgun to your physical commlink just fine. It's a PAN. When you go online, your persona doesn't replace the physical commlink, just the commlink's icon. All your devices are still slaved to your physical commlink and still part of your PAN.

[Namikaze]

Hey Grend, was your guy working for a gang or something?  Most corps, even the smallest, will give their security staff decent equipment.  Though a building spider probably doesn't get the same advantage of an RCC, simply by virtue of often being wired into the building directly.  The building isn't a drone, so you don't really need an RCC.  But if the rigger was tied into the building directly, he'd use the host's ratings for Firewall and such.  Much like a decker.