[Anarkitty]

Yeah, specialization is fine, but meleee characters should still be able to competently handle some guns, and ranged fighters should be able to at least defend themselves in close combat.

[Xenon]

On that note:
Maybe Shotguns and Pistols should have a smaller negative dice pool modifier if used while running or in melee combat (compared to other ranged weapons).

[firebug]

On that note:
Maybe Shotguns and Pistols should have a smaller negative dice pool modifier if used while running or in melee combat (compared to other ranged weapons).

Shotguns are still longarm weapons.  Unless it's a sawed-off shotgun or other specifically shorter-barreled weapon, I'd think it would get at least as much a penalty as rifles.  Though I'm no gun expert...

[Insaniac99]

On that note:
Maybe Shotguns and Pistols should have a smaller negative dice pool modifier if used while running or in melee combat (compared to other ranged weapons).

Shotguns are still longarm weapons.  Unless it's a sawed-off shotgun or other specifically shorter-barreled weapon, I'd think it would get at least as much a penalty as rifles.  Though I'm no gun expert...

Depends on if you want realistic or action movie.  Realistically, even with the widest choke, you need to shoulder that thing to aim accurately.  if you go action movie the spread is enough that you can fire it from the hip without issues.

[Xenon]

There are several military spec shotguns.
They are used for CQB (and to blow off locks and hinges of doors when you breach).

And in most FPS games you get to run faster with shotgun and SMG compared to assault rifles.
...and in many of the games it is also easier to run n gun with SMGs and shotguns without using ADS.

(the little real life experience I have of shotguns is that you don't want to hip-fire with them....)

Shadowrun is often more towards Hollywood cool looking action rather than Real life simulation.



I think it would make perfect sense that you could use a shotgun with the same advantages in close quarter battle as you would get from for example using a sub machine gun. It would also give Longarm specialists a weapon of choice to use when going indoors.

But currently there is actually no reason for the sniper to switch to pistol or shotgun instead of his sniper rifle when going inside (it should be). Quite the opposite actually - as with a sniper rifle all targets up to 50 meter will still be within short range (while with a pistol or a shotgun 50 meters is a rather extreme range).

[Reaver]

There are several military spec shotguns.
They are used for CQB (and to blow off locks and hinges of doors when you breach).

And in most FPS games you get to run faster with shotgun and SMG compared to assault rifles.
...and in many of the games it is also easier to run n gun with SMGs and shotguns without using ADS.

(the little real life experience I have of shotguns is that you don't want to hip-fire with them....)

Shadowrun is often more towards Hollywood cool looking action rather than Real life simulation.



I think it would make perfect sense that you could use a shotgun with the same advantages in close quarter battle as you would get from for example using a sub machine gun. It would also give Longarm specialists a weapon of choice to use when going indoors.

But currently there is actually no reason for the sniper to switch to pistol or shotgun instead of his sniper rifle when going inside (it should be). Quite the opposite actually - as with a sniper rifle all targets up to 50 meter will still be within short range (while with a pistol or a shotgun 50 meters is a rather extreme range).

Agreed and disagree with you

Shotguns, on the whole are not really military issue, and there are reasons for that (but don't need to go into here).

It's actually law enforcement that mostly uses a shotgun for the exact reason you listed (busting locks), but usually it is only 1 guy out of 4 that actually has the shotgun, the rest are a combination of submachine gun (the MP series is a favorite) , and assault rifle (the M4 is used mostly in the States/Canada. Not sure what European countries use).

The advantage of the shotgun in close quarters is a hotly debated topic currently. This mostly stems from hearing damage to members of the SWAT and other police forces that use a shotgun (shotguns are loud! especially in doors), as well as instances of Shrapnel damage from ether the shot bouncing off solid objects (like a pellet bouncing off a fridge and lodging in a SWAT officers neck! Thankfully non-life threatening.) Or of the lead slug splitting and hitting team members with debris, burning red hot debris..... But the Shotgun's ability to breach doors is winning out for now.

Videogames are really not a good place to go for Firearms info they have a host of issues to deal with, and accurate portrayal of how a weapon actually works (including movement, recoil, etc) is not high on their list of things to get right.... It's more about balance... so you run faster with this weapon, are a little more accurate with that one, and auto kill any target 10m away with a stab of  a kitchen knife. (looking at you modern Warfare. F**k y*u Modern Warfare!) [really!?!?!? I unload 28 5.56mmm rounds from 20 to 10 meters away into a chest... I actually watch ALL the rounds hit, yet *I* am the one to die when he runs up and "stabs" me from 10 meters away... yea... F.U. Modern Warfare!]

Submachine guns and carbines are the preferred CQB military weapons, but really I doubt you care

however, I totally agree with you that sniper rifles have no business in a firefight, especially one in CQB!! I wish they would bring back that wonderful little rule from 4e that said if you used a sniper rifle in a firefight or CQB, you had to make a karma roll for each turn or the accuracy of the weapon when to shit (a progressive dice pool mod)....... But they either took it out or forgot to add it back in...

[Csjarrat]

Videogames are really not a good place to go for Firearms info they have a host of issues to deal with, and accurate portrayal of how a weapon actually works (including movement, recoil, etc) is not high on their list of things to get right.... It's more about balance... so you run faster with this weapon, are a little more accurate with that one, and auto kill any target 10m away with a stab of  a kitchen knife. (looking at you modern Warfare. F**k y*u Modern Warfare!) [really!?!?!? I unload 28 5.56mmm rounds from 20 to 10 meters away into a chest... I actually watch ALL the rounds hit, yet *I* am the one to die when he runs up and "stabs" me from 10 meters away... yea... F.U. Modern Warfare!]

Ha, yeah especially when people have been known to survive 40+ stab wounds in gang attacks and such.
I hate that about video games, like why was a rifle butt deadlier in halo than a rocket launcher?
bizarre...

[Xenon]

The fully automatic AA-12 shotgun is only used for military applications AFIK?


As i said, my own real life experience is that you brace shotguns to the shoulder
Nothing your run n gun with


But in the world of SR5 it would make perfect sense that Pistols, Shotguns and SMGs get a smaller negative dice pool modifier when using them while locked in melee or when you are considered running (or some similar bonus that mostly would affect CQB)



Also,
CoD4 Hardcore Mode. Best FPS evar.
(except maybe CS... back before patch 0.6 or so.... when it was still a free mod to HF)

[Reaver]

The fully automatic AA-12 shotgun is only used for military applications AFIK?


As i said, my own real life experience is that you brace shotguns to the shoulder
Nothing your run n gun with


But in the world of SR5 it would make perfect sense that Pistols, Shotguns and SMGs get a smaller negative dice pool modifier when using them while locked in melee or when you are considered running (or some similar bonus that mostly would affect CQB)



Also,
CoD4 Hardcore Mode. Best FPS evar.
(except maybe CS... back before patch 0.6 or so.... when it was still a free mod to HF)

Actually fired an AA-12.... not a bad piece of hardware... thanks to the unique bolt system, very little recoil so it was very accurate!


The reason why Militaries shy away from shotguns is more of logistic issue and a safety issue.

 For the logistics side, militaries quickly found that having dozens of different caliber weapons in the field lead to massive problems in logistics. With so many different weapons and calibers, units in the armies sometimes would not get fresh, usable ammo for their weapons on a consistent basis as their was just too much confusion as to who needed what, where. (cira 1890s to 1910)

By the start of WW1, many armies still fielded a variety of weapons, but he calibers used changed from dozens to just a few. (2 or 3 different pistol ammo, 2 or 3 rifle, 1 or 2 machine gun) But this still lead to supply issues as entire regiments would be sent the wrong ammo! Thus leaving them effective out of the fighting... or "Walking targets" during the march towards the enemy lines...

By the start of WW2, most armies had reduced the number of different rounds down to a small hand full, as well as standardized weapons for all soldiers, instead of this mis-mash of weapons of different sizes, quality and makers....

Today, most modern armies function of just a dozen different calibers in total (and yes, the 12-guage is one of them) thus easing the logistics of supplying ammo.

As for safety..... No other weapon in the world jams more often then a shotgun. Doesn't matter what the feed is on a shotgun, be it pump action, semi automatic or fully automatic, the all have a much higher rate of fouling and failure.

Part of this is the fact that shotgun ammo comes in plastic casings and those casing expand and warp in ways that are not as predictable as brass, thus leading to a fouling of the chamber. the other issue is the gas pressures in shotgun shells is actually a lot less then a standard rifle. This leads to incredibly sophisticated feed mechanics to over come this issue... and even then, shotguns still randomly fail (sometimes lethally for the shooter!).

Range is also an issue, combat shotguns rarely have accuracy past 100m (which is not that big of an issue in CQB)

So, in the field, the shotgun is not a trusted weapon by militaries..... They use them yes... but they would much rather give you an assault rifle. After all if your primary weapon fails.... a soldier is almost next to unarmed!

[martinchaen]

*facepalms*

[Blue Rose]

Shotguns actually see significantly more use in defense of Navy ships, where boarding operations are entirely close-combat affairs, as a shotgun is far less likely to cause catastrophic damage to the ship itself while still causing plenty of damage to human targets.  It's hard to win a firefight when halfway through, you have to drop your gun to stop the massive hole you just blasted in the fire main that's about to make you all drown.

[Angelone]

Shotguns actually see significantly more use in defense of Navy ships, where boarding operations are entirely close-combat affairs, as a shotgun is far less likely to cause catastrophic damage to the ship itself while still causing plenty of damage to human targets.  It's hard to win a firefight when halfway through, you have to drop your gun to stop the massive hole you just blasted in the fire main that's about to make you all drown.

That's pretty interesting you probably see smgs for similar reasons.

[Reaver]

Shotguns actually see significantly more use in defense of Navy ships, where boarding operations are entirely close-combat affairs, as a shotgun is far less likely to cause catastrophic damage to the ship itself while still causing plenty of damage to human targets.  It's hard to win a firefight when halfway through, you have to drop your gun to stop the massive hole you just blasted in the fire main that's about to make you all drown.

you know, I can totally see that too...


No matter the size of the ship, it rocks and rocks on the water, which would make accuracy hell.... a shotgun load with #1-4 shot? heavy pellets, good spread but is not going to punch holes in the structure either.

And this is probably why militaries keep shotguns.

[Triskavanski]

When I was on an aircraft carrier, if there was any rocking, I totally didn't notice it. Granted we were in good weather too.

[Xenon]

...and in Vietnam they used handguns (and knives) when they went into the tunnels. 


But in SR5 you would use big rigid stock assault rifles (with a grenade launcher under it and possible even gyromounted)
...or a long barrel high caliber sniper rifle with a giant sound suppressor.

In SR5 there is just no reason to bring a pistol, smg or shotgun in CQB
(only reason to ever bring one is possible because they are easier to conceal...)