[Longshot23]

Yeah . . . .

I actually thought of this when posting on another thread. To wit: what prompted the development of cybermancy? And why do some of the procedures apparently come from 'Ancient' knowledge?

[Sendaz]

I imagine it was probably originally seen as an upgrade from the homunculus / golem servants, which relied on an animating spirit. While potentially powerful, they had the weak spot of being disruptable/banishable, though not too easily since they could have an physical anchor.

Binding the living spirit of a metahuman to an object/body removes that threat since you can not exactly banish a 'spirit' on his home plane/turf. But there were probably limits to what that now bound spirit could really do in a normal body.  Spirits from other planes tended to have added abilities, whereas the metahuman spirit was pretty much just there to drive a body.

Fast forward an Age and now cybertech gave us all sorts of shinies to attach to said body, but at the cost of breaking the mind/body/spirit link.  So someone dusted off some old techniques and fiddled with it a bit to keep the spirit locked into a souped up body, granted with a slew of problems with break down both mental (psychosis and more) and physical (tumors and similar as the body is confused on whether to shut down or keep going).

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Interesting thought process, Sendaz, but I really can't entirely see where it comes from.  I won't argue about the possibility of a metahuman-spirit-driven homonculus/golem, as I don't have any serious knowledge of EarthDawn, but I find it unlikely to do so, when it's so much easier (not to mention legal) to bind an Ally to one. 

In any case.  Longshot, the corporations - or rather, every cybernetics/bioware scientist ever - has wondered how to cram as much 'ware into a body while keeping it alive.  Like any facility anywhere, someone bitched about the 'hard limit' at one point or another to a friend or colleague who was doing research on conjured spirits, ritual magic, blood magic, symbolic links, and/or the controlling and binding of ghosts.  In essence (pun intended), one thing led to another, and the two of 'em got permission from the money men to start experimenting.

Where the 'ancient knowledge' comes in might refer to several places - either the dragon (Great or otherwise, corrupt/toxic or otherwise) that's rumored to be an integral part of Aztechnology, or the vampires (possibly ancient) who are definitely at the core of the Ordo Maximus, or a blood shaman who managed to wrangle the secret of such bindings from her mentor/totem spirit.  It's possible, but not likely, that one of the Immortal Elves or any of the known Great Dragons was involved; they seem to prefer a 'clean' manasphere as much as possible.

The critical knowledge is the magic to control a metahuman spirit, really.  We can keep bodies on life support for years IRL; we have no control over the person's soul, and none such has been published in Shadowrun material - for good reason.

[Reaver]

Knowing nothing of the ED Setting,

the entire process screams of Blood magic/necromancy, and who really knows where any of that ancient knowledge comes from?

Who taught Daniel Coyote the Ghost dance?

Who taught the Aztec Blood Mages the blood rituals?


"when you stare long enough into the black, something stares back"


****


This is probably one of the "hundred and one" forgotten plot hooks that died the day FASA closed it's doors.... all we can do is guess.... And as GMs, let our minds wonder on to which little "character's personal fear" we are gong to lay the answer to this question at... IF our character go snooping

[Shock223]

In any case.  Longshot, the corporations - or rather, every cybernetics/bioware scientist ever - has wondered how to cram as much 'ware into a body while keeping it alive.  Like any facility anywhere, someone bitched about the 'hard limit' at one point or another to a friend or colleague who was doing research on conjured spirits, ritual magic, blood magic, symbolic links, and/or the controlling and binding of ghosts.  In essence (pun intended), one thing led to another, and the two of 'em got permission from the money men to start experimenting.

Where the 'ancient knowledge' comes in might refer to several places - either the dragon (Great or otherwise, corrupt/toxic or otherwise) that's rumored to be an integral part of Aztechnology, or the vampires (possibly ancient) who are definitely at the core of the Ordo Maximus, or a blood shaman who managed to wrangle the secret of such bindings from her mentor/totem spirit.  It's possible, but not likely, that one of the Immortal Elves or any of the known Great Dragons was involved; they seem to prefer a 'clean' manasphere as much as possible.

The creation of Cybermancy was more than likely a metahuman innovation so I view the above statement as very likely.

I likewise dislike the notion that metahumanity needed to be "taught" this as it implies that metahumanity is incapable of creating it's own innovations and discoveries.

[Longshot23]

The relevant section of Augmentation (pg 143-148) cites three probable sources for the techniques - Aztechnology, Saeder-Krupp and the Heavenherds of the Azanian Federation via Universal Omnitech - and two more possibles - NeoNET and Ordo Maximus - who, weirdly, seem to be connected. Of course, other megacorps aren't left out - MCT and Ares are mentioned. I'm wondering if Deus pursued this line during the Arcology Shutdown, or if it went with cyborgs instead.

Aztechnology uses blood magic (big surprise) techniques, whereas S-K went with another model supposedly coming from Lofwyr. Why he would bother is not clear. It's possible that the Azzie program is/was related to their . . . thing . . . with Juan Atzcapotzalco, if he was in fact a 'vessel' for possession.

I guess I'm looking for fluff pieces about the development of cybermancy - there's enough crunch, considering it's not intended that PCs will get to apply the procedures. Having cybermancy applied to a PC is a whole other sitch . . .

[Michael Chandra]

Seems like it's in part from the Dragons, which likely are trying to get an army that they can use against Mankind. After all, the things are horribly sensitive to Essence Drain so as anti-Horror army they fail horribly. But perhaps they're trying to work out how to make them resistant against that as well, so they can enslave all of mankind and destroy the Horrors with 'em.

[Reaver]

Seems like it's in part from the Dragons, which likely are trying to get an army that they can use against Mankind. After all, the things are horribly sensitive to Essence Drain so as anti-Horror army they fail horribly. But perhaps they're trying to work out how to make them resistant against that as well, so they can enslave all of mankind and destroy the Horrors with 'em.

....

missed your coffee this morning?

[Michael Chandra]

Every morning. Though honestly it's the only proper explanation I can think of for why the Dragons would be developing Cybermancy.

As for a lack of coffee, has anyone noticed how Horror becomes Horrible and Horrific, yet Terror becomes Terrible and Terrific? All I can think of is that it went to an 1800s version of wicked.

[Reaver]

Every morning. Though honestly it's the only proper explanation I can think of for why the Dragons would be developing Cybermancy.

I don't think dragons were sitting around going "Hey, know what would be cool?,,,"


In fact, there was nothing like cybertech back in ED, so I doubt very much whatever contributions dragon(s) made to cybermancy was with cyber-Zombies in mind...

I can see a dragon going "I wonder what happens if you trap a soul into a cyber-overloaded body...."


But lets face it, given the life span of a cyber zombie, they are not exactly cost effective. Essentially you are spending millions on cyber and magic just to guarantee a "Dead by" date.... Of course, if they do actually manage to make a cyber-zombie that survives more then a few months... But even then, the applications of such a toy are limited to military use/body guard work...

[ImaginalDisc]

Is it unreasonable to assume some CEO told her cyberwear R&D department, "Find a way to cram every possible piece of SOTA into a person by any means necessary" and gave them a huge budget? Cybermancy may be mad mojo, but it's hardly out of left field in the context of the setting.

Known fact #1: Cyberwear weakens the soul's ability to cling to the flesh.
Known fact #2: The soul, or "astral form" can leave the body without killing the person - provided the person is awakened and has this ability.

Therefore, find a way to tether the soul of a person with too much cyberwear to their body. Honestly this seems like a -to paraphrase a meme- Six World Problem with a Sixth World solution. In a way cybermancy is one of the most transhumanist things in the whole setting, it's just more Frankenstein than Eclipse Phase.

[Nightmare]

The Ordo has always been connected to cybermancy, especially in the early beginnings.  Bet the vamps know something.  Was originally mentioned in the old Cybermancy sourcebook of SR2E.

[Shock223]

Seems like it's in part from the Dragons, which likely are trying to get an army that they can use against Mankind. After all, the things are horribly sensitive to Essence Drain so as anti-Horror army they fail horribly. But perhaps they're trying to work out how to make them resistant against that as well, so they can enslave all of mankind and destroy the Horrors with 'em.

Dragons already have their tools (Drakes) and using Cyberzombies seems like something that would be used against dragons rather than for them (A dragon going up against five Cyberzombies would be a fight to see) as Cyberzombies start allowing metahumanity to approach a dragon's level of power.

Something of that nature I would consider most dragons would view as unacceptable. 

[RustedChrome]

Dragons already have their tools (Drakes) and using Cyberzombies seems like something that would be used against dragons rather than for them (A dragon going up against five Cyberzombies would be a fight to see) as Cyberzombies start allowing metahumanity to approach a dragon's level of power.

Seems to me that would be a good reason for Lofwyr to get in on the ground floor of the Cyberzombies
Metahumans are curious sorts and cramming cyber into a meat puppet looks like such a good idea on paper at some point if it could be done we would figure out how to do that.  Given the numbers compared to dragons we can flood the field with Cyberzombies.
If you knew that at some point in your life someone was gonna send a dozen of these freaks after your hide wouldn't you want to know where the astral kill switch was?

[Reaver]

Me thinks too many people have "scales on the brains"......     And I think you should be looking at a more... Chitinous reason....


The first accounting of Cybermancy that is reliable is from Hatchetman in 2056.

In 2055, the world got it's first world wide glimpse of just what uglies lay beyond the vale.... Bug City.


So, now we have limited lifespan, astral vortex living dead, which lets face it, don't really have much purpose then frontal combat...


Sounds like some other Corp got wigged out by the bugs, and decided to make their own "fire watch" teams... only better.