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Johnson looking for a new crew. (PbP)

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Agonar

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« Reply #90 on: <04-21-14/1152:54> »
Spiders almost always. . . .
. . .are legitimately employed by the Corps (or other places that are allowed legitimate Spiders), and so that employment typically trumps law (Extraterritoriality, and all that).  a Spider can use "illegal" attack actions all day long, but since they are registered as employees of a Corp, their OS doesn't twitch, the GODs never come down on them (p.232, 2nd column, 2nd paragraph)

Shadowrunners, on the other hand, are.. typically..  not legitimately employed by the Corps, so they don't have the same legal backup to let them get away with carrying the illegal stuff.  Instead, they have to rely on trickery, forgeries, Fake SINs and Licenses to try to convince anyone checking, that they do have legitimate reasons to be carrying "hacking" software.

So it really doesn't matter what Spiders use, because f they are stopped by the cops, they typically have the credentials to back themselves up.  Sh
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Celtibero

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« Reply #91 on: <04-21-14/1207:51> »
re-doing the guns, i did not notice that the HK from Run&Gun was14F.... my bad

edit: and done.
« Last Edit: <04-21-14/1225:32> by Celtibero »
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joe15552

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« Reply #92 on: <04-21-14/1318:17> »
Spiders almost always. . . .
. . .are legitimately employed by the Corps (or other places that are allowed legitimate Spiders), and so that employment typically trumps law (Extraterritoriality, and all that).  a Spider can use "illegal" attack actions all day long, but since they are registered as employees of a Corp, their OS doesn't twitch, the GODs never come down on them (p.232, 2nd column, 2nd paragraph)

Shadowrunners, on the other hand, are.. typically..  not legitimately employed by the Corps, so they don't have the same legal backup to let them get away with carrying the illegal stuff.  Instead, they have to rely on trickery, forgeries, Fake SINs and Licenses to try to convince anyone checking, that they do have legitimate reasons to be carrying "hacking" software.

So it really doesn't matter what Spiders use, because f they are stopped by the cops, they typically have the credentials to back themselves up.  Sh

Exactly, so when a spider is not being a spider and walking down the street and broadcasting his SIN, his licenses to do all that hacking he does at work using a deck and hacking programs show up if security personnel/drones run a scan on his SIN.

Celtibero

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« Reply #93 on: <04-21-14/1325:42> »
Yes... but his SIN and his licenses are not fake... they hold up to scrutiny.... yours... well... not so, then why flaunt it?!? to get jail time? seems a fast way to the county house (or to the river bottom if KE officer in charge does not give a damn about 1 less SINless chummer)
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joe15552

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« Reply #94 on: <04-21-14/1406:30> »
Yes... but his SIN and his licenses are not fake... they hold up to scrutiny.... yours... well... not so, then why flaunt it?!? to get jail time? seems a fast way to the county house (or to the river bottom if KE officer in charge does not give a damn about 1 less SINless chummer)

Who said anything about flaunting? My character is just trying to walk down the street.

ismilealot

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« Reply #95 on: <04-21-14/1610:30> »
As additional food for thought that self-same corp spider or security guy would absolutely not be covered by his licenses or corp legal muscle if he was using company equip & software to do things on his own time and for his own benefit, You can use the company car on company business. If you get caught using the company car to smuggle drugs on your weekends off they will let the police arrest you. If you get caught using the company car to smuggle drugs and it's going to reveal that the car has a built in hidden compartment that still has DNA from a body they've disavowed all knowledge of they're going to extract you, find out how much you know and then get rid of any loose ends.
Same with hacking and those licenses. Tied to SIN's and give you a reason to have that stuff. "Just trying to catch up on some work officer" and the license checks out, or it doesn't. "Yes, I've worked with Mitsuhama in the past as a traveling consultant and I'd like to settle down now. So, while I'm settling in I'm putting my resume out there." "I'm an AR designer but I'm here on vacation." So, you can have them and use them to try and bluff your way out when you're caught. You can save the nuyen and geek the suit asking you nosy questions. BUT, bottom line I want you to think about your chara and what they're going to do and how they're going to do it and what cover they're using and start thinking outside of the rulebook. Yes the book calls them hacking programs, because it's a rulebook and you need to know what they are and what they're for. But, if you're going to have them I want you to actually think about them, and spin a cover story for them because cops don't buy that you're using hacking programs as a legal hacker outside of a corp anymore than they'd buy that you're using high-grade milspec and armor piercing bullets to go deer-hunting, Walking down the street isn't the problem, getting caught inside a secure facility with a set of lock-picks is. And then the licenses aren't likely to help you for long tbh. But they may just give your team the time they need while the suits spend some time checking them out. There are lots of ways a smart runner uses his tools. But not if he hasn't invested the time to think about them.

SHADOWARRIOR, yes you have posted your story. I actually meant DarkMessiah and said your name by accident. Sorry for the confusion.
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Triskavanski

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« Reply #96 on: <04-21-14/1653:17> »
Spiders almost always. . . .
. . .are legitimately employed by the Corps (or other places that are allowed legitimate Spiders), and so that employment typically trumps law (Extraterritoriality, and all that).  a Spider can use "illegal" attack actions all day long, but since they are registered as employees of a Corp, their OS doesn't twitch, the GODs never come down on them (p.232, 2nd column, 2nd paragraph)

Shadowrunners, on the other hand, are.. typically..  not legitimately employed by the Corps, so they don't have the same legal backup to let them get away with carrying the illegal stuff.  Instead, they have to rely on trickery, forgeries, Fake SINs and Licenses to try to convince anyone checking, that they do have legitimate reasons to be carrying "hacking" software.

So it really doesn't matter what Spiders use, because f they are stopped by the cops, they typically have the credentials to back themselves up.  Sh

Exactly, so when a spider is not being a spider and walking down the street and broadcasting his SIN, his licenses to do all that hacking he does at work using a deck and hacking programs show up if security personnel/drones run a scan on his SIN.

why would a spider be walking down the street with his deck?
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Celtibero

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« Reply #97 on: <04-21-14/1657:44> »
To cross the road?   ;D
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joe15552

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« Reply #98 on: <04-21-14/1810:58> »

Quote

why would a spider be walking down the street with his deck?

1)Just got off work, and walking to the subway
2)Just got off the subway, and walking to work
3)Taking a quick coffee break
4)On lunch break
5)Got called to inspect a security breach in the area, and meeting up with a security team shortly (this example would work with an armed spider)

joe15552

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« Reply #99 on: <04-21-14/1811:13> »
As additional food for thought that self-same corp spider or security guy would absolutely not be covered by his licenses or corp legal muscle if he was using company equip & software to do things on his own time and for his own benefit, You can use the company car on company business. If you get caught using the company car to smuggle drugs on your weekends off they will let the police arrest you. If you get caught using the company car to smuggle drugs and it's going to reveal that the car has a built in hidden compartment that still has DNA from a body they've disavowed all knowledge of they're going to extract you, find out how much you know and then get rid of any loose ends.
Same with hacking and those licenses. Tied to SIN's and give you a reason to have that stuff. "Just trying to catch up on some work officer" and the license checks out, or it doesn't. "Yes, I've worked with Mitsuhama in the past as a traveling consultant and I'd like to settle down now. So, while I'm settling in I'm putting my resume out there." "I'm an AR designer but I'm here on vacation." So, you can have them and use them to try and bluff your way out when you're caught. You can save the nuyen and geek the suit asking you nosy questions. BUT, bottom line I want you to think about your chara and what they're going to do and how they're going to do it and what cover they're using and start thinking outside of the rulebook. Yes the book calls them hacking programs, because it's a rulebook and you need to know what they are and what they're for. But, if you're going to have them I want you to actually think about them, and spin a cover story for them because cops don't buy that you're using hacking programs as a legal hacker outside of a corp anymore than they'd buy that you're using high-grade milspec and armor piercing bullets to go deer-hunting, Walking down the street isn't the problem, getting caught inside a secure facility with a set of lock-picks is. And then the licenses aren't likely to help you for long tbh. But they may just give your team the time they need while the suits spend some time checking them out. There are lots of ways a smart runner uses his tools. But not if he hasn't invested the time to think about them.


First of all, I bought regular ammo for my character for a reason, and a permit for regular ammo for a reason. If my character doesn't think he can smuggle his forbidden gear into a place that he intends to go (let's use a soycaf bar for an example), then he is not going to bring his APDS rounds, or any of his other forbidden equipment for that matter. In fact, if he doesn't think that he can come up with a good cover story as to why he is bringing any of his restricted gear that he has licenses for to a soycaf bar, he won't bring that either. My character is not going to be walking the streets of Denver with a deck and a full backpack full of B&E gear while he's buying soycaf at a local soycaf bar. This is what an apartment is for.... which is why my character has an apartment.... to store gear that he doesn't think he can smuggle or explain away.

Second of all, why is it assumed that my character is going to be using his deck for hacking while broadcasting his fake SIN? That's about the stupidest thing you could possibly do... Almost as stupid as broadcasting your SIN while taking out security personnel with your semi-automatic weapon. The fake SIN and licenses are ONLY for some credentials to back up whatever story he (or the face) has come up with (fast talk, and that's why I purchased that skill) as to why he is going from point A to point B with said equipment. Point A being his apartment. If my character doesn't think he can make it to point B (the job) with his restricted or forbidden equipment, then he is going to have to do the job from the privacy of his apartment, or get some help to get to point B with the equipment (we do have a team, after all). I bought the licenses to give our face a little bit of a break when he tries to explain why the teenager in the back of the van has a deck and a gun (which he hopefully never has to do anyway). Once we get to point B, time to stop broadcasting a fake SIN, get our comlinks into silent mode or Wrapped with some good cover icons, and get the job done. ANY AND ALL HACKING should NEVER be done while broadcasting a SIN. That is just plain dumb, unless you are hacking for a mega corp, security company, or some other entity that has monopolized the legal system, i.e. a spider ON THE JOB.

Thirdly, I bought these fake licenses to HELP my character. I am really starting to think that everyone wants my fake licenses to HURT my character. If the writers of the game wanted fake licenses to HURT characters, then they would be a negative quality characters could obtain for extra karma.... BUT THEY ARE NOT! They are items in the game meant to help characters survive the world of Shadowrun, and the cost of them reflects that.

Fourthly, I am not going to come up with a single cover story to explain all my equipment and licenses. That would be setting up my character, and our team, for failure. I need to be able to have the flexibility to come up with the best cover story for the situation at hand, and our team needs that flexibility too. The cover story may not even be created by my character. The cover story may be created by our face, so if my character is sticking to his own little cover story he made up with his little teenager mind, that may screw things up for our face and our team.

Fifthly (yep, that's a word), I put a LOT of thought behind just about everything I say, write, or do. I'm not claiming that everything I say is correct, appropriate, or true, but it is certainly well thought-out. Insinuating the opposite is an insult. Period.
« Last Edit: <04-21-14/1817:24> by joe15552 »

Poindexter

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« Reply #100 on: <04-21-14/1832:38> »
Fourthly, I am not going to come up with a single cover story to explain all my equipment and licenses. That would be setting up my character, and our team, for failure. I need to be able to have the flexibility to come up with the best cover story for the situation at hand, and our team needs that flexibility too. The cover story may not even be created by my character. The cover story may be created by our face, so if my character is sticking to his own little cover story he made up with his little teenager mind, that may screw things up for our face and our team.

nice.
flexibility uber alles.
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Celtibero

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« Reply #101 on: <04-21-14/1902:11> »
Lets take it by parts shall we?

I'm still working on the permit thing. I'll just make up a permit called "Hacking Programs Permit". Sound good?

To me (and all of this post is ofc my opinion) that's the same as having a SMG with the permit "firearms: murder tools" attached to them. carrying and possession may be legal within some groups (security guards, KE, whatever) that have the permits (legal ones for that matter) but i would not be one of them, i am a shadowrunner, thus the permit should be something that does not draw too much attention or raise any flags, think about it for a second will you?

your whole point about hacking not being illegal...

Joe, as memory serves Hacking is still illegal in 2075, so think of a legal name to hide your hacking programs in lol.
If it was illegal, then all the hacking programs and decks would be forbidden. They are not forbidden, they are restricted, and so is hacking. I am trying to obtain a fake licenses to partake in that restricted activity with those restricted programs using that restricted equipment. If that's not viable in your game, then I shouldn't buy any licenses at all, and just stick with my fake SIN and try to hide everything else.

its illegal, thus there is GOD and demi-GODs, are you a corporate spider? are you a member of GOD? no? good, then its illegal. a corporation hired you to do some hacking? if it goes south do you think they will say "oh yeah... we hired him for that alright, just don't touch him plz"... most unlikely, they will dissavow any knowledge of your activities (and possibly contract a wet-work on your head just to keep it safe)

Thirdly, I bought these fake licenses to HELP my character. I am really starting to think that everyone wants my fake licenses to HURT my character. 

hmm... like... everyone has them? but guess what? they are FAKE :) yup, you read it correctly (and you also wrote it correctly), they are fake as in not legal... so... is it advisable to keep them as plausible as possible? hell yeah imho.

Fourthly, I am not going to come up with a single cover story to explain all my equipment and licenses

Seattle Downtown
2113pm

Impromptu roadblock at undisclosed location

A large van stops at a Knights Errant roadblock

KE officer: Good night gentleman, start broadcasting your SINs. KILO-ECHO-delta01 start scanning for weapons and cyberware, KILO-ECHO-delta02 run a matrix search.

Face: come on officer we where just going downtown for a drink

KEofficer: all SIN seem to be in order...

KEdelta01: Sir, scan this, one of the broadcasted permits reads " Hacking Programs Permits"

KE officer: are you guys joking with me?!?!? Weapons at the ready, hands up and leave the van immediately, double check all the permits and SIN's boys.

Face: errrr I am sure the teenager in the back can explain better than i....
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Celtibero

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« Reply #102 on: <04-21-14/1908:27> »
disclaimer: and before you take it seriously, that last part should not be taken as such ;)
« Last Edit: <04-21-14/1923:04> by Celtibero »
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jim1701

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« Reply #103 on: <04-21-14/1929:10> »
I've created a user account for Obsidian Portal.  User name is Radecliffe.  ;)

I chose the following priorities: A: Magic 6 / 2 x Magic skills at rank 5 / 10 spells | B: Attributes 20 | C: Metatype Dwarf (1) | D: Skills 22 | E: Resources 6,000.

The one special attribute point I got from metatype went to boost magic to seven which i could do since I took the Exceptional Attribute PQ for magic.  If that is not ok then just let me know and I will adjust.

I got 2 magic skills at level 5 from taking magic at priority A.  That is Summoning and Spellcasting.  I also boosted both to 6 and specialized Spellcasting from my base skill pool.   Also all the rank one skills (Alchemy, Binding, Ritual Spellcasting, Astral Combat and Survival) are paid for from karma at 2 points each. 

Karma breakdown:
Qualities: net 3 karma spent (see below)
PQ: 19 karma spent
NQ: 16 karma gained
Contacts: 2 karma spent
Skills: 10 karma spent
Resources: 10 karma spent

Note:  I've saved my worksheet as a pdf and linked below for reference along with my character sheet in case excel is a problem.  I've made a few minor updates since I initially posted it, just FYI.

Description:  Of average height and slender build for a dwarf Tobias sports a heavy tan and a weather beaten look that indicates a great deal of time spent in the outdoors.  Other distinguishing features of note is the fact that he's bald as an egg and sports a neatly trimmed van dyke that he tends to stroke when contemplating a particularly difficult problem.  Tobias can most often be found wearing comfortable work clothes on the order of work boots, cargo pants, pull over shirt, armor jacket, leather gloves and an old battered panama hat.  When the situation warrents it he will also strap on an ancient, but still deadly, Ruger Warhawk.  Just to keep the opposition honest, of course. 

Personality:  Tobias can often appear absent minded though when the pressure is on or when he is working on his research there is no doubting his ability to focus.  In social settings Tobias has no problem holding his own and is always willing to regale those around him with tales of the places he has been, the people he has met, the things he has seen and the critters that have tried to eat him.  It is When he comes across an interesting piece of arcane lore or some object of historical significance that his true obsession comes to the surface.  Running the shadows might pay the bills but it is in the delving of secrets and the pursuit of rare knowledge that is his true passion.

Background:  Tobias was born and raised in a small community a couple hours from Denver deep in the Rocky Mountains.  He will tell you community but really the it was more of commune than community.  Tobias' parents along with the other residents were all a bit radical in their thinking that corporations were a corrupting influence on metahuman society and they wanted nothing to do with it.  They stayed off the grid, conducted their research for the sake of research and raised their kids to follow in their footsteps.  More or less anyway.  Tobias was a particularly talented mage, much like his father, but also a particularly lazy student except concerning subjects that piqued his interest.  Then one summer Tobias two things happened.  The first was The final straw came when Tobias discovered the field of archaeology.  He devoured every scrap of text available on the subject and eventually declared his intention to leave home to pursue his research in the field like any good archaeologist.  Not surprisingly his parents were not overly supportive of his decision and over the next several days the arguments were long, loud and numerous.  Finally, Tobias packed up his few belongings and stormed out of the house never to return. 

Arriving in Denver broke, SINless and without a clue as to how the outside world worked it was a minor miracle that Tobias was not picked up at any of the various boarder crossings.  But with a lot of luck and not a little paranoia Tobias managed to stay out of trouble and (more importantly) out of jail for several days.  Things probably would have still ended badly if not for a chance encounter late one night.  Walking to his squat Tobias saw a couple gangers working over a Dwarf in an alley.  One Earth Elemental later and it was the gangers laid out on the ground and the older dwarf, Mr. C as he called himself, professing his gratitude.  Mr. C got Tobias a job with a talismonger he knew, Sally One Eye.  Sally gave him the job of helping her collect and process reagents for sale to the local magic community.  Mr. C also helped him find a place of his own in the PCC sector community of Lakewood.  It did not take Tobias long to realize, however, that if he were going to make enough money to pursue his research he was going to need to do a lot more than harvest reagents.  Eventually Tobias secured his first shadowrun commission and never looked back. 

Over the next decade or so Tobias would run the shadows building up a stake until he had enough money to either finance a small expedition of his own or buy into a larger expedition.  He did several digs in China, South America and Europe and after each one he managed to end up back in Denver broke and more or less empty handed but still satisfied he had managed to delve a little deeper into the past each time.  Ever undaunted Tobias would return to the shadows long enough to earn enough money for the next dig and it was off to work the next site.  Never in it for the bling Tobias would have been content to continue this cycle indefinitely had it not been for that last dig in South America.  To say that things went badly in South America is like saying Nanothrax is a nasty cold.  They had just started working the dig when the expedition was overrun by pack of feral beast spirits.  Tobias had taken seven, well equipped, veteran researchers into that jungle and when he came stumbling out a month later he had two half dead, gibbering wrecks with him.  For the first time Tobias had learned a lesson that was not to his liking.  If you are going to go digging up ancient secrets in the sixth world you damned well better have the power to blow the living drek out of whatever it is that didn't appreciate you digging it up in the first place.  So now he's back in Denver running the shadows and biding his time until he has the power to do just that, assuming he lives long enough of course.

Worksheet PDF:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Q9wPlDPVCrd1U1YjhaMWtzVWM/edit?usp=sharing
Character Sheet PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Q9wPlDPVCrRWRtSkxMTTRnUVk/edit?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: <04-21-14/1949:16> by jim1701 »

joe15552

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« Reply #104 on: <04-21-14/1949:09> »

Quote
If it was illegal, then all the hacking programs and decks would be forbidden. They are not forbidden, they are restricted, and so is hacking. I am trying to obtain a fake licenses to partake in that restricted activity with those restricted programs using that restricted equipment. If that's not viable in your game, then I shouldn't buy any licenses at all, and just stick with my fake SIN and try to hide everything else.

Legal hacking is legal. Illegal hacking is illegal. There IS such a thing as legal hacking. Anyone that wants to set up a secure network can to it best by using hacking programs. They can do this legally. That's what the permits are for.

Quote
its illegal, thus there is GOD and demi-GODs, are you a corporate spider? are you a member of GOD? no? good, then its illegal.

GOD looks for illegal activity, not all hacking in General. No, I'm am not a corporate spider, and no I am not a member of GOD, but those are two possible explanations of why I would have a license to use hacking programs.

My character's entire existence is illegal. He has no SIN. He has a fake SIN to appear to be legal. He has fake licenses to appear to own and use equipment legally.

Quote
hmm... like... everyone has them? but guess what? they are FAKE :) yup, you read it correctly (and you also wrote it correctly), they are fake as in not legal... so... is it advisable to keep them as plausible as possible? hell yeah imho.

Not sure what you are saying.... except maybe you are pointing out something that we agree on: the SIN's and licenses we have are fake.

Quote

Seattle Downtown
2113pm

Impromptu roadblock at undisclosed location

A large van stops at a Knights Errant roadblock

KE officer: Good night gentleman, start broadcasting your SINs. KILO-ECHO-delta01 start scanning for weapons and cyberware, KILO-ECHO-delta02 run a matrix search.

Face: come on officer we where just going downtown for a drink

KEofficer: all SIN seem to be in order...

KEdelta01: Sir, scan this, one of the broadcasted permits reads " Hacking Programs Permits"

KE officer: are you guys joking with me?!?!? Weapons at the ready, hands up and leave the van immediately, double check all the permits and SIN's boys.

Face: errrr I am sure the teenager in the back can explain better than i....

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. Penalizing a player for using the game system correctly is bad gaming. Period.
The programs are called hacking programs, and they are not called anything else. They are restricted so everyone that owns them and uses them must obtain a license to  own them and use them. My character is obtaining those permits illegally in an effort to appear to be legal. The best rating he is able to obtain on those permits is rating 4, which is enough to pass the random roadblock that you described. If you don't think so, then you should probably let your players know that the in-game items they purchased will not work in your game.