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So just how bad is Charisma 1 and no social skills?

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PittsburghRPGA

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« on: <04-08-14/0952:29> »
So, I ran Missions at a new convention. Well, new to me and Shadowrun. Tekko is primarily an Anime, Manga, Japanese Pop Culture convention, that has slowly been adding other fandoms. I was asked, and agreed to run Missions because with all the Japana Megacorops, this rpg fits nicely.

But I had two folks show up whose previous rpg experience was D&D and playing Barbarians.  Charisma 1, and no social skills at all. And in one case, kept trying to talk, intimidate, and etc, the Johnson and other non-hostile NPCs.  Rolling 0 dice, it's pretty much always a glitch, or always a critical glitch?

The second one, I managed to convince that it was a horrible idea to be rolling no dice in social situations.

At least neither had also stacked Uncouth on top of it. 

So, in other GM's opinions, just how socially inept are these PC's with Cha 1 and no social skills?

Thanks,

Eric

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1 on: <04-08-14/1031:58> »
Very. If they open their mouth to anyone, it just screams trouble. Especially the guy pissing off the Johnson, that's a good way to end up with -6 on your Negotiation test.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #2 on: <04-08-14/1039:53> »
I would argue that at zero or even one dice, you can't attempt what you're attempting with any chance of success.  I'd notify the player, because the character probably would realize this and simply not do it.  If they insist, then I'd let them roll the attempt and let the situation go where the dice indicate.  The real problem I've had with this is when people argue that getting a 1 on a single-die test is a critical glitch, but getting a 6 isn't a critical success.

I would also use this as an opportunity to point out the uses of Edge, which is a great game mechanic for Shadowrun.
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ZeConster

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« Reply #3 on: <04-08-14/1041:18> »
0 dice is automatically 0 hits (no glitch since you don't roll any 1s) unless you use Edge.

The real problem I've had with this is when people argue that getting a 1 on a single-die test is a critical glitch, but getting a 6 isn't a critical success.
Isn't a critical success 4+ net hits?

Bushw4cker

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« Reply #4 on: <04-08-14/1123:53> »
I try to imagine people I've met in Real Life who have Charisma 1 with no social skills... Pretty much everyone at DMV?.. My first college roommate..

Even these socially inept people have friends, wives, boyfriends..

So how do these people manage to have any semi-normal social interactions?

I would give bonus dice to Character with Charisma 1 who have similar Knowledge skills to NPC they are interacting with. You're probably going to get along better with someone who has similar interests.  2 people who both really like Urban Brawl, Matrix games, ect..
Like in Idiocracy.. Frito "I like Money, I like havin' sex with chicks."
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martinchaen

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« Reply #5 on: <04-08-14/1131:52> »
CHA1 with no social skills would equate, in my mind, to a very socially inept character.

Since the skills are neatly grouped into categories, I'll go through them one by one with the assumption that the character has zero ratings in each and a Charisma of 1. Keep in mind these are all my interpretations of fluff, and not crunch.

Quote from: SR5 p138: Con
Con governs the ability to manipulate or fool an NPC during a social encounter. This skill covers a range of confidence games as well as the principles behind those cons
Whether by virtue or simple inability, the character cannot tell a believable lie to save his life (literally!). Except in circumstances where the character is in possession of a really good disguise and/or convincing evidence, and in a situation where the target of the Con attempt doesn't have the time to consider what's being said and it isn't detrimental to the target, the character will be nearly completely unable to come up with even a half-decent white lie.

Quote from: SR5 p138: Etiquette
Etiquette represents the level of understanding and awareness of proper social rituals. The skill works as a sort of social version of Sneak, allowing you to move unimpeded through various social situations. Etiquette also serves as a social safety net in case a player botches a social situation in a way a skilled character would not.
This is the kind of character who, without thinking, might babble in excited interest when he sees that the Johnson has the latest piece of [weapon/augmentation/fashion] in his possession/on his person, or the kind of guy who'll ask the Mafioso muscle what his problem is when the Mafioso looks in his direction. Alternatively, it's the kind of person who never meets your eyes when talking to you, or who always wears inappropriate clothing, or who fails to adhere to table manners or "common decency". It might also be the kind of person who flat out refuses to do a job "because the pay ain't good 'nough", or who doesn't know any of the customs of the people he's talking to and ends up insulting their mothers through some slight miscommunication. He's not necessarily as suicidally offensive as the uncouth character can be, but he's not far from it.

Quote from: SR5 p138: Impersonation
Impersonation is the ability to assume the identity of another person, including voice and physical mannerisms. The skill is limited by the physical abilities of the character. A dwarf might be able to impersonate a troll over a commlink, but the illusion shatters when he is face to face with his target.
To me, this is nearly ever single Christopher Walken or Arnold Schwarzenegger impressionist out there, and would in this case be represented by characters who can't do any accents or change in intonation at all, and who comes across as wooden when trying to be someone they're not. This is similar to Performance, below, at least to my mind, but applies more on a one-to-one basis as opposed to the one-to-many of a stage actor.

Quote from: SR5 p138: Instruction
Instruction governs the ability to teach people. The skill level helps determine how comfortable the instructor is delivering new material as well as how complex of a skill may be taught.
Have you ever had a teacher who just couldn't pass along knowledge? This is the guy who knows the subject matter but can't seem to understand how to impart knowledge. It's the advanced math teacher who blames his students for "not understanding" when he explains a subject matter the basic math students haven't got the basis to comprehend.

Quote from: SR5 p139: Intimidation
Intimidation is about creating the impression that you are more menacing than another person in order to get them to do what you want.
This is the punk who thinks he's hard, but who comes across as nothing but. It's the opposite of Vinnie Jones in Snatch, or the thug with the "knife" who threatens Crocodile Dundee, or pretty much everyone who's lived a sheltered life amongst the rich coming up against a hardened criminal. Anyone with a shred of backbone on their own will be able to see through the posturing.
 
Quote from: SR5 p139: Leadership
Leadership is the ability to direct and motivate others. It’s like Con, except rather than using deception you’re using a position of authority. This skill is especially helpful in situations where the will of a teammate is shaken or someone is being asked to do something uncomfortable.
This is the POS night-manager that some of us have had to deal with, who has no management skills but thinks he's the business. It's the officer who has all the training in the world, but no way of applying it in combat. It's the masses of people who, when faced with an emergency, stand still and watch others take action. They are the opposite of the civilians, firemen, and policemen who ran towards the towers in New York when that ugly business took place.

Quote from: SR5 p139: Negotiation
Negotiation governs a character’s ability to apply their charisma, tactics, and knowledge of situational psychology in order to create a better position when making deals.
This is the person who doesn't know what he's got, be it skills, items of worth, or money, and who demands too much or too little for what he has. It's the people with low self esteem or that fear confrontation so much that they cave to any argument or debate that opposes their point of view. These people are the targets of scams like used car hustlers, door-to-door salesmen selling doors, or real-estate agencies selling property on Mars.

Quote from: SR5 p139: Performance
This skill governs the ability to execute a performing art. Performance is to the arts what Artisan is to craft. The performer uses her skill to entertain or even captivate an audience.
See the Impersonation  tab above. These are the people who can't remember their lines, or who cannot tell a joke to save their lives (again, literally!). It's the people with no rhythm trying to play percussion, or the ones who have no concept of pitch who go on American Idol.


Note that social modifiers can make even a socially inept character at least mediocre.

With regards to intimidation, someone with 0 dice can get up to [Street Cred] dice for being known, 3 for being physically imposing, another 2 for outnumbering the target, and another 2 each for wielding a weapon or causing the target pain, and another dice if the target is drunk. Going from 0 to 10+ dice isn't bad; of course, if using all of the above the target could be considered either Hostile (-3) or Enemy (-4) at this point, and depending on what you're trying to intimidate the target to do you could be racking up negative dice modifiers of up to -4 for a total of -8 dice pool modifier, bringing you back down to 2+.

That's quite enough for me, I think... Hope it helps.
« Last Edit: <04-08-14/1149:15> by martinchaen »

Bushw4cker

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« Reply #6 on: <04-08-14/1157:18> »
Nice Reply martinchaen.  :)

Curious what you think about my comment about NPC and Characters with same Interests (Knowledge Skills) giving Bonus dice to social interactions.
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Vandarl

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« Reply #7 on: <04-08-14/1208:34> »
Oh I am so saving and printing off martinchan's post for a handout to new players. Exactly what charisma 1 and no social skills means.

martinchaen

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« Reply #8 on: <04-08-14/1208:52> »
Thanks, Bushw4cker. And Vandarl, thanks, but please note that this is not necessarily a bad thing; I just created a rigger with 1 CHA and no social skills, because his background has him as a bit of a loner who prefers the company of his drones to other people, and who's spent all of his life in study halls and/or labs. But I also don't expect to need to talk to anyone seeing how I'm a driver and recon specialist, and if I do, there's always edge and GPS data for some positive modifiers :)

I like the idea of using Knowledge Skills for more than just knowledge. It's not explicitly covered by the rules, but I'd allow that.

Want to chat up that lady sitting at the bar by talking about how you actually like the music the band is playing? Roll your Music (Jazz) Interest knowledge skill, and apply any hits as bonus dice to your Con (Seduction) roll.

Want to talk down the the gangers who're currently pushing several guns into your face? Roll your Street Rumours and Pharmaceuticals skills. 3 and 2 hits! You have heard rumours that the gang's second-in-command has been stealing drugs from his own gang, and judging by the tremors in his hands and widely dilated pupils you can tell that he's clearly using Nitro; his friends might not appreciate this. Add 5 dice to your Intimidation roll if you try to threaten the lieutenant, or to Negotiation if you try to talk to the other members instead.

I'm all for more options and for giving benefits to people who think about what their characters might know and use it in clever ways.
« Last Edit: <04-08-14/1214:27> by martinchaen »

Namikaze

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« Reply #9 on: <04-08-14/1242:17> »
The real problem I've had with this is when people argue that getting a 1 on a single-die test is a critical glitch, but getting a 6 isn't a critical success.
Isn't a critical success 4+ net hits?

Yeah, I think so.  But I had a player who felt that if his glitch was caused by 50% of his pool being 1s, then a critical hit should be 50% of his pool being 6s.  He argued this with me until I was blue in the face.  He moved on to a different game for similar reasons.  He thought I was punishing him for having a low dice pool.  My answer to that was, "you're punishing yourself by trying to do the impossible with no skill."
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Kincaid

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« Reply #10 on: <04-08-14/1643:43> »
Man, now I really regret not being able to make it to Tekko--that would've been fun to watch.

I've seen a lot of the (semi) charismatic players dump social stats on the assumption that when they say something witty and charming, their character conveys things in the exact same way.  I'll tell the player to roleplay more accurately, but if he insists, I'll just have the NPC react as though he's talking to one of the guys mentioned by martinchaen.  After all, the totally sketchy guy at the bar probably hears a really charming guy when he listens to himself...but sadly, he's the only one.
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Muscular_Bevar

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« Reply #11 on: <04-09-14/0525:06> »
I feel I also need to tip my hat to Martin, well done.

But I think your thought Bushwacker can be taken a step further. Whilst knowledge skills are an avenue to apply bonuses, you also have the plethora of normal bonuses available that would apply and help explain why your socially inept college room mate has some firends. The obvious school ones are things like having common goals and enemies (we need to stop failing this subject or "do you also hate the lecturer/ the sheep at the front of the room?") and i feel like even a random bonus for two chars who both lack social skills (you know you've seen it wether at school or you LFGS theres always those people you either feel sorry for and hang out with because of shared interest as Bushwacker said, but just as often those wierd circles of friends made up of people everyone else cant stand to be around!)

Situational modifiers should both be able to make the least skilled able to do some things (if not well) and the most skilled be more likely to fail!
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Bushw4cker

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« Reply #12 on: <04-09-14/1139:26> »
I feel I also need to tip my hat to Martin, well done.

But I think your thought Bushwacker can be taken a step further. Whilst knowledge skills are an avenue to apply bonuses, you also have the plethora of normal bonuses available that would apply and help explain why your socially inept college room mate has some firends. The obvious school ones are things like having common goals and enemies (we need to stop failing this subject or "do you also hate the lecturer/ the sheep at the front of the room?") and i feel like even a random bonus for two chars who both lack social skills (you know you've seen it wether at school or you LFGS theres always those people you either feel sorry for and hang out with because of shared interest as Bushwacker said, but just as often those wierd circles of friends made up of people everyone else cant stand to be around!)

Situational modifiers should both be able to make the least skilled able to do some things (if not well) and the most skilled be more likely to fail!

I can't believe I missed the most important Social Modifier! Money!

Is that Stripper being extra nice to you because you seem like a nice guy, or because you have a Ebony Credstick.

« Last Edit: <04-09-14/1141:15> by Bushw4cker »
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martinchaen

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« Reply #13 on: <04-09-14/1142:12> »
"Is that a credstick in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me..."

To be fair, though, money probably shouldn't "buy" you dice; it should just buy you results. Some of the few times you can buy dice (and it even says so in the book) is when contacts are doing legwork for you and your loyalty isn't enough for them to give you the info for free, and when you go looking for gear. I'd be hesitant about allowing characters to buy more dice, preferring them to simply buy information instead.

Subtle difference, I know, but I prefer that a players investments has a better chance of paying off than 1/4.

Mithlas

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« Reply #14 on: <04-09-14/1648:30> »
I like the idea of using Knowledge Skills for more than just knowledge. It's not explicitly covered by the rules, but I'd allow that.

Want to chat up that lady sitting at the bar by talking about how you actually like the music the band is playing? Roll your Music (Jazz) Interest knowledge skill, and apply any hits as bonus dice to your Con (Seduction) roll.

Want to talk down the the gangers who're currently pushing several guns into your face? Roll your Street Rumours and Pharmaceuticals skills. 3 and 2 hits! You have heard rumours that the gang's second-in-command has been stealing drugs from his own gang, and judging by the tremors in his hands and widely dilated pupils you can tell that he's clearly using Nitro; his friends might not appreciate this. Add 5 dice to your Intimidation roll if you try to threaten the lieutenant, or to Negotiation if you try to talk to the other members instead.
This is how I run all of my games with Knowledge. My players used to like using it to buff their Negotiation tests, once to help Navigation, and another to rewiring a maglock. They've edged more towards combat, where I don't think having Military Weapon History (Sniper Rifles) really does much to help you shoot people at 400m when they're moving and trying to lay down suppressive fire.

Yeah, I think so.  But I had a player who felt that if his glitch was caused by 50% of his pool being 1s, then a critical hit should be 50% of his pool being 6s.  He argued this with me until I was blue in the face.  He moved on to a different game for similar reasons.  He thought I was punishing him for having a low dice pool.  My answer to that was, "you're punishing yourself by trying to do the impossible with no skill."
When I started running, we actually did run it that way (50%+ 1s was a glitch, 5/6s was a critical success), but after the players started improving their dice rolls they looked back into the book and said "hey, it's 4+ net hits. We want it this way". We did so and none of them have managed a crit success yet (except one combat test where the opponent rolled no hits to resist damage, which I said was the burst of automatic fire walking up his torso, sending a bullet into the throat and right eye).