[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Actually, I guess I really did fail to read your entire post there, JimmyCrisis, so I do apologize.  The differences between our characters' concepts - which I initially thought of as being built for 'all other things being as equal as possible' - are very radically different, what with the initial 1s in attributes and things like that.  So yes, I apologize.  Enjoy your game.

[JimmyCrisis]

To Wyrm Ouroboros, thank you.  Please forgive my temper, I'm a bit of a hothead and this medium conveys slights where perhaps none are intended.

I really just want to get the idea across to other people that there are more ways to play the game - more interesting character ideas that by the nature of the mechanics tell a story that wouldn't otherwise be told.  That's why I push the point - I want others reading this to be open and accepting of new ideas and willing to take risks for the sake of fun, adventure and roleplaying.


To Wells,  I don't value the opinions of trolls.  I argue for the sake of coming to an understanding, not because I enjoy the exercise.

[WellsIDidIt]

That's amusing.

Your point of view is that Edge and Initiative Boosters are "fairly balanced." They aren't. They're fairly balanced in optimal situations for the runner. Balance and optimization have nothing to do with the ways to play the game. You can play any character the rules can make. Many people enjoy playing unoptimized characters that are built to reflect their story rather than the max DP they can toss or the best gear they can cram in.

Neither of us said that using edge instead of Initiative Boosters is an invalid way to play. We pointed out that they are not balanced choices. Saying they are, and failing to address the actual risk that character would face just leads people to make uninformed decisions rather than your supposed goal of opening up other ideas. Not addressing the issue of your effectiveness equaling a number of combat rounds equal to your edge is, as Wyrm said, "short sighted." All you've done is shown one side of the equation (optimal runs where things go smooth), but you've ignored the other side of the equation (where things don't go smooth) and then flat out stated that pointing out that side of the equation is wrong and rude.

[gmoney999]

I think its worth pointing out that Reaction enhancers 3 is at least as good as one level of synaptic boosters (syn boosters have on average 1.5 more initiative, but two less dodge dice).  I've seen lots of people with synaptic boosters one, and no one seems to say that they are weak.  These are also characters that don't have max edge.  So my sense is that reaction enhancers 3 is a valid option, particularly on a tanky street sam or one with low cash (troll C for example, which is a more interesting option these days I think).

Saying that, I think wired reflexes 1 and reaction enhancers 3 is probably the optimal choice at character creation.  That or be an adept.

[Michael Chandra]

Minor note: You mean Used Reaction Enhancers 3, yes?

[gmoney999]

Re: Michael -  Yup!

I also meant Metatype A troll, Resources C as being a good choice for used reaction enchanters 3

[Michael Chandra]

I skipped them and got them after chargen with my Resources C, since I went +3 Agi, +4+4 soak dice, instead.

[gmoney999]

4+ 4+ soak dice, is that used bone density and orthoskin?

I noticed the other day that you can fit used muscle augmentation 3, used reaction enhancers 3, and aluminum bone lacing in on resources c.  Pretty awesome with the +armor options in Run and Gun.  Great way to get a agility 8, strength 12 troll with 14 DV punching

Actually if you take used cyberware, its pretty amazing what you can take on resources c. 

[Michael Chandra]

Correct. And yes, that also goes nicely. How do you get Agi 8 though? MA only gives Strength. You'd require Replacement.

[gmoney999]

My bad, thats what I meant, used muscle replacement 3.  Its 3.5 essence, but you can fit it in fine. 

[JimmyCrisis]

Wells, I just don't read your posts anymore.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

You've posted 36 times, Jimmy, jumped all over my ass over a slight perceived purely on your own, but when someone calls you out for being willingly blind, you snip and declare that you ignore them???

I apologized for not reading your post completely - not because I thought you made a good point, but because your character is a destructobot that any - every - character of mine could eliminate in two heartbeats and a quarter-second of thought, and because of your post, I felt like the point you were making was de facto completely negated - in part because the character hasn't a logical brain in their head, few knowledge skills on that point, and is going to be the victim of every schmoozer or brain out there.  It wasn't an apology because you were right - just for not reading your post.  But because I didn't want to inflame the issue, I stayed silent, and sure enough, someone else pointed out your glaring errors - to which you reply with ... that.

Christ, boy, if you can't show respect, at least show some goddamn courtesy. 

[WellsIDidIt]

I think its worth pointing out that Reaction enhancers 3 is at least as good as one level of synaptic boosters (syn boosters have on average 1.5 more initiative, but two less dodge dice).  I've seen lots of people with synaptic boosters one, and no one seems to say that they are weak.  These are also characters that don't have max edge.  So my sense is that reaction enhancers 3 is a valid option, particularly on a tanky street sam or one with low cash (troll C for example, which is a more interesting option these days I think).

Saying that, I think wired reflexes 1 and reaction enhancers 3 is probably the optimal choice at character creation.  That or be an adept.

I don't see WR and RE taken together often. Most players don't like the wireless requirement that cropped up in 5E. Part of it is common sense, part of it is irritation that they can't just have a system from 2070 where they worked fine together without the matrix access.

That said, used RE 3 is really common on starting street sams that I see. Especially if the player is wanting to go for Synaptic Boosters but just doesn't have the cash at creation. Winds up being about 10k per point of Reaction, so it's not that big of a waste.

Then again, I rarely see people go above C for resources unless they're playing a Decker or Rigger. Even most of the Sams I see just grab what they have to have to compete since they know they'll be stripping it out with how cheap the upper grades are now. If you're going with used ware at creation you can cram in a ton of stuff with a 140k.

My bad, thats what I meant, used muscle replacement 3.  Its 3.5 essence, but you can fit it in fine.

Used is times 1.25 essence. MR 3 would be 3.75.

You can still cram it all in easily though if one of them isn't used:
-Used MR 3 (3.75 essence, 56.25k)
-Used RE 3 (1.125, 29.25k)
-Aluminum Bone Lacing (1, 18,000)
Total (5.875, 103.5)

Still got 36.5k to play with too.

I think mine went with:
-Used RE 3 (1.125, 29.25k)
-Used MT 3 (.75, 72k)
-Used BD 4 (1.5, 15k)
-Used OS 4 (1.25, 18k)
-Used Datajack (.125, 750)
Total (4.75 ,135k)

Only had 5k to play with, but most of his other wants were over the avail limits anyway.

Wells, I just don't read your posts anymore.

So, you don't read my posts, just respond to them, yet I'm the one trolling? Is it still April 1st?

I find this laughable coming from you, Wells. If you want respect or courtesy, try showing some to others for a change.

Uhm...you realize you didn't quote me, right?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I find this laughable coming from you, Wells. If you want respect or courtesy, try showing some to others for a change.

Uhm...you realize you didn't quote me, right?

That's okay, Wells - I think he got stuck on the 'W' and had maybe just read your post or something.

Christ, boy, if you can't show respect, at least show some goddamn courtesy.

I find this laughable coming from you, Wells. If you want respect or courtesy, try showing some to others for a change.

ZeConster, I have a shockingly high signal-to-noise posting ratio; a near-encyclopaediac knowledge of the game's background; some pretty great knowledge of 1-3e game technicals; a fine grasp of the game's concept-for-play as well as its concepts-for-story; etc. etc.  As the man said, it ain't braggin' if it's the facts, and those are the facts.  I am almost always courteous at the very least, reserving my scorn for the ideas of people as compared to the people themselves; that's called courtesy.  I don't say to them 'oh, I don't even read your posts any more', because if I really did, I wouldn't be responding to them; JimmyCrisis saying that is him being offensive with no reason besides to be offensive, not unlike his 'you are wrong and you are rude.'  (I may have been condescending, but I doubt that highly, and I was certainly and by no means rude.  Given what I had to work with, though ... It's tough to look at people who think one attribute is the be-all end-all and rely upon it exclusively, handicapping themselves in a myriad of other ways, and not try to show them that they're being myopic.)

[ProfessorCirno]

I have literally never seen someone refuse to get Wired Reflexes and Reflex Boosters together because of the SCAAAAARY WIRELESS bonuses.  Indeed, the only time I've seen someone only take WR was my own decker, because I was crunched for cash and just wanted to ensure a second IP.  Nor have I frankly seen anyone freak out in game over those oh so terrifying enemy deckers.  As far as I can tell it's purely a forums phenomenon.