[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

You can also take into account the 'big score' runs.  Should, actually.  I'm possibly going to be playing/running in a game in the near future, and if I run, I intend on having the 15-20k per individual 'standard run'; if the characters are smart, they can save 5 or 10k per run, with an eye towards their goals.  And then, every five or six runs, there is a whopper of a run - one of those whirlwinds of chaos, betrayal, and destruction, such as Queen Euphoria or some other high-paying run, published or not - that gets them a nice karma harvest, but a great cash injection.

[MortimerBane]

I still use the suggested rules laid out in the sourcebooks of 2nd and 3rd edition.  Base the runners' pay off of their lifestyles.  If a runner goes to a fixer looking for work dressed in ragged clothes and smelling like the dumpster he slept in then he will get crap jobs that involve really shady people and really bad pay.  A man who drives a EuroCar Westwind and wears an Actioneer suit just runs with a different crowd.  He finds work with higher class Johnsons which are more involved runs and pay more money.  So a runner with mid lifestyle needs to make 5k a month to stay afloat.  As a GM, I assume the runners will go on one big run per month so in this case the jobs he does for his fixer pay 5k per run.  A run takes some legwork and planning then the run itself.  After the run the group needs some downtime to wait for the heat to let off, fence the loot, etc..  All in all 1 run per month seems right.  If the team can squeeze in more runs then all the rest is bonus money.  Also, every so often a big run comes up with a much larger than normal payoff.  In this case maybe it pays 25k instead of the usual 5.  But in general you want the team hungry.  You don't want them the have every toy on their list after 4 or 5 runs.  If they want more toys they really have to step it up.  If they can save up money to 'represent' themselves to the shadowrunner community as something worth paying more money for jobs then those jobs will come.  You must dress the part.  The problem is always this:  How can we go up in lifestyle if we can just afford the ones we have now?  Here's the best way.

Team Lifestyle ~~~  If the team has been running for a little while and getting along well then forming a permanent professional team is the next step.  A lifestyle (identity) is set up for the team.  A property (office) is rented and the rent is split up according to the WAR on sharing lifestyles.  This is the easiest way for someone with low lifestyle (2k/month) to start making 10k per job!

The next step the team should take is to start creating their own jobs.  Say a small corp(a) wants data that's stored in another corps'(b) mainframe.  That data would allow (a) to know when (b) is going to be ready to release their product.  If (a) can release their similar product, they stand to make millions of nuyen.  It's worth it to them to spend a good deal of money to make those millions.  So someone from corp (a) might be willing to spend 100k nuyen for that data.  A willing fixer sets up an operation with a budget of 200k.  Anything that's not left over is the fixers pay.  So if he can get a team of 6 runners to do the job for 5k ea then he can pocket 70k the easy way.  If the runners can set up their own missions then they can keep all the money.  They must have enough cash to bankroll teh job though.

[RHat]

So a runner with mid lifestyle needs to make 5k a month to stay afloat.  As a GM, I assume the runners will go on one big run per month so in this case the jobs he does for his fixer pay 5k per run.

So income and basic expenses are equal?  This seems very problematic.  First, if on that run someone is hurt badly enough to need medical attention, they're screwed.  Second, you're denying a fundamental aspect of progression for an extended period of time, which places an entirely undue burden upon the tech characters, being as they are more reliant on money than on Karma.

[Namikaze]

Hmm.  RHat brings up a good point.  I like the idea of using the Lifestyle costs as a baseline, but I'd probably be inclined to offer up to twice Lifestyle cost per month, either as raw nuyen or in trade.  This allows the runners to gradually move up in their Lifestyle, pay for replacement gear, medical needs, etc.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Team average lifestyle has been recommended in the books as a baseline previously, and it's a good idea.  It's also a baseline, and could be adjusted as per the guidelines in SR5.

Honestly, payment has always been a major thorn, but a wise GM does something of the above, and offers the total amount, not 'X per runner'.  X per runner is for Missions and pick-up games, so that everyone knows it's being balanced out.  The smart GM doesn't get into distribution, just like a smart Johnson wouldn't care to.  "It's 80k.  Okay, 90, but that's all I got."  Sure, it may be +500 per hit per runner, but work out how much that's gonna be total-per-hit ahead of time...

[Namikaze]

Honestly, payment has always been a major thorn, but a wise GM does something of the above, and offers the total amount, not 'X per runner'.  X per runner is for Missions and pick-up games, so that everyone knows it's being balanced out.  The smart GM doesn't get into distribution, just like a smart Johnson wouldn't care to.  "It's 80k.  Okay, 90, but that's all I got."  Sure, it may be +500 per hit per runner, but work out how much that's gonna be total-per-hit ahead of time...

Pay-per-mission is something very distinctively Shadowrun.  I agree with Wyrm on the preparation angle.  I don't mind it too much when a Johnson pays per runner, but I prefer to let the team decide how to divvy up the pay.  And whenever possible, I determine the incremental pay in advance for the same reasons that Wyrm brings up.

Also, damn - 10k improvement at 500 per runner is 20 runners.  Or a LOT of negotiation hits. 

[Michael Chandra]

I had a 20k-jumps run once, that contained extra follow-up stuff. All in all, they ended up getting paid spread over 3x or so, including the advance, each with a maxed Silver credstick. Since the first credstick didn't split in 7, they ended up giving the bartender 50, and later used the other remnants as donations. So even though all totalled it was 20k per runner, they ended up with 19.950 each. ^_^'

It's a nice trick and I forget to employ it occasionally. Then again, last run was a military operation so each runner got their own wage. But normally we're talking a budget yes, and I've used a total budget a few times.

[RHat]

Hmm.  RHat brings up a good point.  I like the idea of using the Lifestyle costs as a baseline, but I'd probably be inclined to offer up to twice Lifestyle cost per month, either as raw nuyen or in trade.  This allows the runners to gradually move up in their Lifestyle, pay for replacement gear, medical needs, etc.

Of course, the question does become "whose lifestyle".  And, for that matter, there's issues with regard to people gaming that system by taking High lifestyle and when people decide that a Street lifestyle most suits their character.

[Namikaze]

Well you don't have to tell the players how you calculate their pay.  And if you suspect that someone is metagaming like that, there are lots of ways to handle the situation.  One thing that I love to do sometimes is make it so the runners are barely squeaking by.  Especially when they start getting to the High lifestyle.  Once they do that, rent is expensive, and the pay for their runs may not cover the bills every month.

[cantrip]

Payment in favors or marks can be useful in certain circumstances. Sure, nuyen nice, but having a gang leader or high level exec owe you one could pull your hoop out of the fire!

[RHat]

Well you don't have to tell the players how you calculate their pay.  And if you suspect that someone is metagaming like that, there are lots of ways to handle the situation.  One thing that I love to do sometimes is make it so the runners are barely squeaking by.  Especially when they start getting to the High lifestyle.  Once they do that, rent is expensive, and the pay for their runs may not cover the bills every month.

Problem is, just scraping by brings us back to the progression issue, both in terms of perceived and actual.  Plus, its not like that system is that hard to figure out.  Plus the varying lifestyles and street/squatter lifestule issues remain.

[Namikaze]

I don't like to make them barely squeak by all the time.  Only when they jump a rung of lifestyle too quickly.  If someone saves up to buy one month of Luxury lifestyle, but doesn't necessarily earn the income already to keep it going, then they're going to lose that lifestyle real quick.

[Senko]

Well you don't have to tell the players how you calculate their pay.  And if you suspect that someone is metagaming like that, there are lots of ways to handle the situation.  One thing that I love to do sometimes is make it so the runners are barely squeaking by.  Especially when they start getting to the High lifestyle.  Once they do that, rent is expensive, and the pay for their runs may not cover the bills every month.

Problem is, just scraping by brings us back to the progression issue, both in terms of perceived and actual.  Plus, its not like that system is that hard to figure out.  Plus the varying lifestyles and street/squatter lifestule issues remain.

I know I wouldn't move up to the high lifestyle unless I thought I could afford it and if the gm suddenly dropped the pay or the like I'd be very annoyed and if I were a mage may even retire that character as they sold out for a high paying job because really if I'm always jut scraping by i may as well do it with a beginner character than my highly skilled legend one where it makes no sense that they've always only got just enough month to monrh, forget better gear you have to rob the local sstuffnshack for dinner.

[SlowDeck]

I don't like to make them barely squeak by all the time.  Only when they jump a rung of lifestyle too quickly.  If someone saves up to buy one month of Luxury lifestyle, but doesn't necessarily earn the income already to keep it going, then they're going to lose that lifestyle real quick.

There's another issue, and one that's always puzzled me... Even when they're a criminal, a Luxury lifestyle draws a lot of attention, both public and not. Go back to the criminals who lived that lifestyle... generally, everyone knew their name. They didn't get caught, but they pretty much had public awareness high enough they were often known in every household. It really bugs me that Shadowrun doesn't reflect this.

Then again, I would have a runner buy a permanent middle-class lifestyle instead of going Luxury. Just enough for comfort, not enough to get really noticed. And I can always upgrade the security myself

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

There's another issue, and one that's always puzzled me... Even when they're a criminal, a Luxury lifestyle draws a lot of attention, both public and not. Go back to the criminals who lived that lifestyle... generally, everyone knew their name. They didn't get caught, but they pretty much had public awareness high enough they were often known in every household. It really bugs me that Shadowrun doesn't reflect this.

I disagree that it doesn't reflect it.  Consider the Luxury lifestyle: 100,000 per month.  That's above and beyond what's needed to reload the guns, fuel the getaway car, pay the medical bills, and put something aside for improvements to the 'ware and gear.  You'd have to do a 10k-paying run every three days, or a 25k paying job for every one of the four allowable weeks in Missions, just to keep up with the lifestyle.  Any runner making that much money is going to have skills out the wazoo, which means karma earned out the wazoo, which means an earned amount of street cred out the wazoo, which means public awareness out the wazoo.  Most earn-mucho-dinero runners who decide to start living the ultra-high-life are probably the same ones who don't mind that whole 'household name' aspect of PA.

I came across an old run tracker spreadsheet just the other day, and out of nine players, I was the only one who was paying close attention to their Street Cred, Notoriety, and Public Awareness.  Everyone else was in the 'every cop has heard your name, and every shadowrunner-wannabes too' category around 9-12 (Public Awareness = 20 - Street Cred - Notoriety), while mine was still in the 'if you have street cred, everyone who knows who you are keeps that a quiet secret out of respect for your professionalism' zone at 19.  Every time the team was burdened with Notoriety, I burned Street Cred to get mine wiped out.  Plus, the GM allowed us to burn street cred in order to permanently reduce our Public Awareness; -1 SC for -2 PA (-1 for the burning, and the natural -1 for being down 1 point of Street Cred.)

IMO, it's stuff like this that matters to a Johnson - but then again, he wouldn't be looking to hire that character for a simple facility bombing ...