[RHat]

comlinks are no longer general computing devices but are heavily restricted in what they can do by arbitrary rules and of course

This is false.  Commlinks are general computing devices, but they lack the hard- and software required for certain specialist tasks. 

Furthermore, there ARE in game reasons for it, and there are valid reasons for people to have made the decisions that they did.  Technical feasibility, on the other hand, cannot be commented on; we only have basic theoretical ideas about how networking in SR4-5 work, because other than some academic work the protocols we're talking about don't resemble anything in the modern day.

[Namikaze]

Problem being its technological magic with gaping plotholes you can drive a truck through. Its not just it does this because its magic but it does this because magic and makes sense by its own rules.

And magic and the astral plane don't have these same gaping plotholes?  The Watergate Rift?  The shedim?  The Horrors?  FAB?  These are all things that are completely bizarre and get explained away all the time by the fact that they deal with principles we don't understand.  That's not the same as a gaping plothole - that's just something beyond comprehension.

[Joush]

comlinks are no longer general computing devices but are heavily restricted in what they can do by arbitrary rules and of course

This is false.  Commlinks are general computing devices, but they lack the hard- and software required for certain specialist tasks. 

Furthermore, there ARE in game reasons for it, and there are valid reasons for people to have made the decisions that they did.  Technical feasibility, on the other hand, cannot be commented on; we only have basic theoretical ideas about how networking in SR4-5 work, because other than some academic work the protocols we're talking about don't resemble anything in the modern day.

Two years ago in setting, a comlink could run any program you liked.

Now, they can't.

[RHat]

comlinks are no longer general computing devices but are heavily restricted in what they can do by arbitrary rules and of course

This is false.  Commlinks are general computing devices, but they lack the hard- and software required for certain specialist tasks. 

Furthermore, there ARE in game reasons for it, and there are valid reasons for people to have made the decisions that they did.  Technical feasibility, on the other hand, cannot be commented on; we only have basic theoretical ideas about how networking in SR4-5 work, because other than some academic work the protocols we're talking about don't resemble anything in the modern day.

Two years ago in setting, a comlink could run any program you liked.

Now, they can't.

Because new kinds of programs exist, which are written for a platform other than commlinks.

After all, why is it, do you think, that they're specifically named "cyberprograms", unlike the programs seen in SR4?

[Namikaze]

Because new kinds of programs exist, which are written for a platform other than commlinks.

After all, why is it, do you think, that they're specifically named "cyberprograms", unlike the programs seen in SR4?

To add to this.  In 4th edition, you had to buy an operating system and every single program you ever intended to use on your commlink.  Now, you just buy the commlink and all that stuff is installed by default.  The cyberprograms that you run on your deck are different specifically because they are not the same as they were in 4th edition.  Or any other edition, for that matter.

Storm Front should be required reading for anyone coming from 4th edition to 5th edition.  They do a good job of explaining that things changed drastically in a relatively short period of time.  They also explained that these changes were kept in the dark to everyone but those who absolutely needed to know.  There are still secrets in Shadowrun that the runners of the world simply haven't uncovered.  Perhaps the core book should have explained this a little better, but I think if you go at it with a fresh pair of eyes that haven't been accustomed to 4th edition rules, the book is fairly clear that cyberdecks and commlinks are not even really all that related to one another.

I'll end my statements on this topic with a quote directly from the core book, page 214:

The paradox of the Matrix is this: to be an ace hacker, you need to understand it—but no one really understands it.

This topic is done.  We've hashed this out across a dozen threads, hundreds of posts, and it all boils down to that one sentence.

[Joush]

This topic is done.  We've hashed this out across a dozen threads, hundreds of posts, and it all boils down to that one sentence.

Yeah, but I have pretty much come down on the side of "SR 5 is badly written" rather then "unknowable mystery". 

[Senko]

@Slowdeck
See my answer to Rhat for the space thing.

@Rhat
So why not write them for commlinks I seriously find it hard to believe a program takes up so much space you can't fit one of them (for the purposes of argument) on a commlink but can fit the entire run of Neil the Barbarian on there or for that matter you can't fit a browse program on your commlink but can fit Return to Planet Wolfenstein 2030 on it. A top end game is going to take up a lot more resources than most of these programs would and you can put those on the commlink, in fact you can apparently put several page 223 . . .

So where do you store all of the things you want to keep? Pictures from your Aunt Edna's wedding, credit information, your SIN, every book and movie you've bought, all the programs you might want to run-all of it fits on your commlink (or cyberdeck if you prefer). In fact, every device on the Matrix has a massive amount of storage space, unthinkable amounts by early 21st century standrads. Your gamemaster might decide that a device is too small or low-grade or a file so massively large that a problem comes up, but such problems are extremely rare..

Please note the bolded information. A specific reference to programs and the statement there's enough space for ALL the books and movies you've purchased. Also that they have a MASSIVE amount of storage space and that incidents where a problem comes up (due to program size or quality of device) are EXTREMELY RARE and a gamemaster decision. In other words that commlink really should be able to run a common editing or browsing program unless your telling me that Microsoft Office 2070 has become so large it takes up more space than dozens of movies, games, multimedia images etc.

If there's an ingame balance reason to deny those programs to a commlink please tell me, its part of why I created this topic so that if there was a genuine balance reason not to allow it I could be aware of it before making any decisions. In the absence of that and a believeable explanation from the perspective of the world in question I'm going to allow commlinks to run these programs.

@Namikaze
I'm just going to ignore that last post as I'm not that familiar with the setting so I don't know what those things are beyond a general knowledge and couldn't make any informed comments. They may well have similar gaping holes (and I'll post about them as and when I find them probably) but right now the magic system as I'm familarizing myself with it makes sense internally unlike this. The other thing to bear in mind is that I'm coming to SR5 fresh, I haven't played 4th edition in fact my knowledge of it solely stems from things like corporate enclaves and 6th world almanac that were reocmmended to me for other interests (japan) and I haven't even read the 4th ed core rulebook.

[SlowDeck]

Senko, it's not a matter of storage capacity. It's a matter of already having the equivalent software for common programs. Thus, you have no space for the deck program because you already have what pretty much amounts to the same program... only, you got it for free.

For the others? Hardware issue.

[RHat]

@Rhat
So why not write them for commlinks I seriously find it hard to believe a program takes up so much space you can't fit one of them (for the purposes of argument) on a commlink but can fit the entire run of Neil the Barbarian on there or for that matter you can't fit a browse program on your commlink but can fit Return to Planet Wolfenstein 2030 on it. A top end game is going to take up a lot more resources than most of these programs would and you can put those on the commlink, in fact you can apparently put several page 223 . . .

So where do you store all of the things you want to keep? Pictures from your Aunt Edna's wedding, credit information, your SIN, every book and movie you've bought, all the programs you might want to run-all of it fits on your commlink (or cyberdeck if you prefer). In fact, every device on the Matrix has a massive amount of storage space, unthinkable amounts by early 21st century standrads. Your gamemaster might decide that a device is too small or low-grade or a file so massively large that a problem comes up, but such problems are extremely rare..

Please note the bolded information. A specific reference to programs and the statement there's enough space for ALL the books and movies you've purchased. Also that they have a MASSIVE amount of storage space and that incidents where a problem comes up (due to program size or quality of device) are EXTREMELY RARE and a gamemaster decision. In other words that commlink really should be able to run a common editing or browsing program unless your telling me that Microsoft Office 2070 has become so large it takes up more space than dozens of movies, games, multimedia images etc.

If there's an ingame balance reason to deny those programs to a commlink please tell me, its part of why I created this topic so that if there was a genuine balance reason not to allow it I could be aware of it before making any decisions. In the absence of that and a believeable explanation from the perspective of the world in question I'm going to allow commlinks to run these programs.

It's not a matter of space, it's a matter of power - and a "high-end game" is a relative thing; a high end computer game is very different from a high end game on a tablet.

And certainly there is a balance reason - the functionality of these programs, such as time reduction on Matrix searches, are meant to be the province of Matrix specialists.

[Senko]

Which should not be the same as deckers when its because of a program a rigger can be absolutely lousy at the matrix beyond jumping into his vehicles but he can still use them.

As for them being already on there that doesn't work unless we get the benefit e.g. +2 to data orocessing when editing but we don't a metalink always has a data processing of 1 no change.

[Joush]

It's not a matter of space, it's a matter of power - and a "high-end game" is a relative thing; a high end computer game is very different from a high end game on a tablet.

Much, much less then you might imagine. X-Com, Enemy Unknown, for example, is perfectly capable of running on a computer or a tablet with enough power. Pretty much anything that uses the Unreal Engine 4 is going to be easy to port from one device to another.

Specialized hardware is very much a thing, but programs can be quite reasonably written to work with some modification on many, many different platforms so long as there are the resources available.

It seems odd to say that you need an explicate, really expensive bit of hardware to run comparatively cheap helper programs.

[Senko]

Especially when you add rigger command consoles into the equation. The cheapest one "scratch built junk" has a device rating of 1, data processing of 3, firewall of 2, CAN run common programs and costs 1,400 nuyen and also functions as a commlink in addition to its other capabikities (sadly its yhe size of a briefcase I.e. even bigger than a deck which can go in your head.

[Joush]

Especially when you add rigger command consoles into the equation. The cheapest one "scratch built junk" has a device rating of 1, data processing of 3, firewall of 2, CAN run common programs and costs 1,400 nuyen and also functions as a commlink in addition to its other capabikities (sadly its yhe size of a briefcase I.e. even bigger than a deck which can go in your head.

Huh, Decks and Control Consoles have the same mod to conceal them. I thought that means that they are about the same size, but I'm also ready to just say that it's another area of the rules that aren't internally consistent or logical.

[RHat]

Senko: Riggers are under the Matrix Specialist umbrella from a different angle, and RCCs clearly have more power than commlinks.

Joush: I've made it clear I'm suggesting commlinks don't have the resources.  Also, X-Com is a terrible example.  A fantastic game, but a terrible example.  There are so many ways to make a game that works the way X-Com does really damn efficient with its draw cycles.

[SlowDeck]

X-Com isn't a high-end computer game. It uses out-of-date graphics and an engine that was showing its age a year before it was replaced (the latest X-Com is Unreal Engine 3, not 4).

Rigger consoles themselves are specialized to drone management. But, notice something... both cyberdecks and RCCs are noticably larger than commlinks, and both can handle cyberprograms while commlinks can't. That speaks to the issue being hardware that the commlink doesn't have but which they do.