[Serin_Marst]

There's a few rules/pieces of equipment that reference full-body armor, but, especially with Run & Gun, I'm not sure about what exactly that means.

It's either

A)Mil/Sec spec armor (so FBA from core and Mil/Sec-spec armor from RnG, probably Riot and Swat gear too), but this line is a little fuzzy.

or

B) any armor that covers the majority of your body.

I'm inclined to go with A (and will for my table), if only because B introduces too many weird results (Half successes for first-aid because they're wearing an Actioneer suit, PPP vitals protector is only compatible with a lined coat, etc), but I thought it'd be worth polling the community's opinions on the topic.

[Furious Trope]

I'd ask the question, "Can you hermetically seal it?"

Chemically sealing an armored business suit is going to take some extreme modifications which will probably be obvious.

Sealing mil-spec armor is adding a few O-rings and the like.

[Kincaid]

I'm going with A, and including Riot and SWAT armors.

[Michael Chandra]

Yeah, it's gotta be something that can be sealed. So basically any armor that comes with its own special helmet, rather than a generic one.

So that's Jumpsuit, FBA, SWAT, Riot, Security, MilSpec, some space suits and diver stuff, Bunker Gear, stuff like that.

[LionofPerth]

I think I might have to add a definition C here.

It's armour that's expected to see sustained heavy combat. So items like the Auctioneer line are still armour, they're most certainly not designed for the sustained contact part in my mind. They would be designed for a heavy but brief encounter.

Where as a SWAT or military armour, you're looking at something that is designed to protect a person for an extended period of time and on top of that, assist them in combat. All of that webbing etc is there for a reason, it's a way to spread the weight of what you're carrying about, meaning you can fight longer, harder and do a whole lot more damage, in theory. I'd also suggest a high degree of customisation, so that your shooters get the protection that they need, while your snipers get something that is very comfortable for extended observations of a possible target.

[Serin_Marst]

I think I might have to add a definition C here.

It's armour that's expected to see sustained heavy combat. So items like the Auctioneer line are still armour, they're most certainly not designed for the sustained contact part in my mind. They would be designed for a heavy but brief encounter.

Where as a SWAT or military armour, you're looking at something that is designed to protect a person for an extended period of time and on top of that, assist them in combat. All of that webbing etc is there for a reason, it's a way to spread the weight of what you're carrying about, meaning you can fight longer, harder and do a whole lot more damage, in theory. I'd also suggest a high degree of customisation, so that your shooters get the protection that they need, while your snipers get something that is very comfortable for extended observations of a possible target.

That's, basically, what I was going for with my definition A. 

It does look like there's a defintion C (and possibly D) here though: can take a chem-seal/comes with a helmet.  Chem-seal is a good rule of thumb, but a circular definition given that chem-seal is one of the rules I was hoping to clarify.   I'm not sure I can be 100% on board with bunker gear (basically a heavy coat over a pair of overalls) or a padded bike messenger body suit crossed with spelunking gear with a matching helmet described as "ventilated and breathable" being hermetically sealed.

[LionofPerth]

I think I might have to add a definition C here.

It's armour that's expected to see sustained heavy combat. So items like the Auctioneer line are still armour, they're most certainly not designed for the sustained contact part in my mind. They would be designed for a heavy but brief encounter.

Where as a SWAT or military armour, you're looking at something that is designed to protect a person for an extended period of time and on top of that, assist them in combat. All of that webbing etc is there for a reason, it's a way to spread the weight of what you're carrying about, meaning you can fight longer, harder and do a whole lot more damage, in theory. I'd also suggest a high degree of customisation, so that your shooters get the protection that they need, while your snipers get something that is very comfortable for extended observations of a possible target.

That's, basically, what I was going for with my definition A. 

It does look like there's a defintion C (and possibly D) here though: can take a chem-seal/comes with a helmet.  Chem-seal is a good rule of thumb, but a circular definition given that chem-seal is one of the rules I was hoping to clarify.   I'm not sure I can be 100% on board with bunker gear (basically a heavy coat over a pair of overalls) or a padded bike messenger body suit crossed with spelunking gear with a matching helmet described as "ventilated and breathable" being hermetically sealed.

I think that definition C is a better one to go by, because it's specifically designed for long term combat. If long term means that it needs to be sealed against the weather, atmosphere, it's still fundamentally designed for long term combat.

I believe that there's something also mentioned about it increasing the Social Limit for Intimidation, that means to me direct combat.

[Michael Chandra]

I wonder if Big Game Hunter would count as FBA. It's showcased as a helmet.

Urban Explorer Jumpsuit was a Full Body Armor in SR4. To be exact, it had Capacity, and only Capacity could be used for the special stuff. But its description indeed clashes with Chemical Seal.

Then there's FBA, MilSpec, Security, Riot Control, SWAT, Bike Racing, Bunker Gear. These all counted as Full-Body Armors in SR4 (since they had Capacity)

To be honest, I'm not sure why Bike Racing Armor wouldn't qualify. It looks quite sturdy.

As for Bunker Gear, it's more than just a heavy coat really. "It includes heavy pants with reinforced knees, puncture-resistant leather or rubber boots, a protective turnout coat with KevFlex and refl ective strips, an aramid hood, heavy work gloves, and a “leatherhead” or similar helmet."

By the way, I think they screwed up on the Bunker Gear Helmets: The reason they had only 3 Capacity was that they came with several vision enhancements already, including a gas mask, TV, LLV and Flare Compensation. Same goes for Riot Control. They raised the SWAT's helmet Capacity so no problem there.


Anyway, the special stuff... The changes from SR4 to SR5 make this harder, I'd assume it's the Artic Forces Suit (noted to come with a helmet) and all the space suits. Also all the diving stuff.

So I'd assume myself Big Game Hunter, the Artic Forces Suit, the space suits, the diving suits, Urban Explorer, FBA, MilSpec, Security, Riot Control, SWAT, Bike Racing, Bunker Gear.

[JoeNapalm]

I dunno about 5e, but in SR4A, we hashed this out here, in-depth, when I was building my Hobgoblin Merc, the infamous Bad Wolf.

Thread was purged with the new boards, but the short version is that Full Body Armor is a class of armor. Just because a suit of armor covers your body doesn't necessarily make it full body armor.

Kind of how a Long Coat is clothing that is armored, but it is not in the class of armor "Armored Clothing."

At the end of the day Chemical Seal can only be used on Full Body Armor class hard armor, not things like FFBA. (My GM actually ruled that BW could have his Chem Seal FFBA, but Rule 0 (GM Fiat) trumps RAW)


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Michael Chandra]

Since FFBA didn't have Capacity in Arsenal, it wouldn't have access to the Chemical Seal under the official rules.

[JoeNapalm]

Since FFBA didn't have Capacity in Arsenal, it wouldn't have access to the Chemical Seal under the official rules.

I believe, under the Modification rules in Arsenal, they stated that non-FBA class armor could be granted mod slots at the GMs discretion. Will have to check the page number when I have the pdfs handy.

Which is kind of a non-rule, since every rule is at the GMs discretion.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[LionofPerth]

Since FFBA didn't have Capacity in Arsenal, it wouldn't have access to the Chemical Seal under the official rules.

I believe, under the Modification rules in Arsenal, they stated that non-FBA class armor could be granted mod slots at the GMs discretion. Will have to check the page number when I have the pdfs handy.

Which is kind of a non-rule, since every rule is at the GMs discretion.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

That has got to be the singularly most useless rule I've read in a long time.

I'm wondering if there's some more formal definition we can go to, beyond something like it's covering most of the body or is designed for long term combat. There's needs to be something more definite to it.

[Michael Chandra]

How about "it has to be capable of covering all of it"? Everything I named falls under that.

[Serin_Marst]

I'm wondering if there's some more formal definition we can go to, beyond something like it's covering most of the body or is designed for long term combat. There's needs to be something more definite to it.

Nope, unless you go with JoeNapalm's "it's the one called Full-body armor in the rule book" (which there IS some support for, more on that later), there's only references to it in other rules.

Namely:

1) It's difficult to perform First Aid through. (possibly implying it's bulky or difficult to remove)
2) IF it includes a helmet, it can take a chem seal. (implying that not all FBA has a helmet)
3) It cannot be combined with supplemental armor, PPP specifically.  (implying it's either bulky or heavily armored enough that extra plating is redundant)

How about "it has to be capable of covering all of it"? Everything I named falls under that.

It's very open to interpretation and can be a bit of a slippery slope.

There are a few on your list that don't have 100% coverage, and you're missing a couple others that fit that definition.

There are only 4 kinds of body armor that come will full-helmets: FBA, Mil-Spec, Sec-Spec and Swat.

The rest have standard helmets.  The illustration for riot gear shows a standard open faced helmet with a flip up face guard, for example.

Likewise, while the illustration for shows some sort of helmet/respirator/gas mask not mentioned in the armor's description, the armor is also depicted as lacking gloves (unless the gloves have fingernails).

Aside from space suits, that pretty well obviously have to be sealed.  Only the drysuit, FBA and mil-spec armor make explicit mention of being hermetically seal-able.  (this is the support I mentioned earlier for JoeNapalm's statement, why call it out if chem seal was so broadly available)

Finally, chameleon/sneak suits are typically depicted with a pull-over hood and facemask (which makes sense for an active camouflage system), so they'd technically fall under the "full coverage" rule.

I don't necessarily disagree with the suggestion, it certainly explains why so many types of armor list a standard helmet for the standard price (i.e. it's the only way to supplement the armor value), but rules 1 and 3 are fairly harsh restrictions new to 5th that, coupled with the relatively light protection of some of these pieces, I'm concerned about playability/balance shifting a slightly sub-optimal stylistic choice (bike racing armor, for example) to a rather harsh and incongruous one.  Bunker gear (which, I'd like to point out, I DID say includes pants) should be no more difficult to proved first aid through than an armored jacket, for example.

[LionofPerth]

Serin, new edition, new rule set, that argument doesn't fly with me yet.

Right now I'm of the opinion that Full Body Armour and Chem Sealed might need to be treated as two different items. I think about the items I know to be chemically sealed and to a whole, they don't particularly work as body armour, armour for direct combat.

I can see how some fire suits can be sealed, same goes for diving suits, they already are in the latter case. I can see that something like a NBC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBC_suit ) suit can be armoured as well. What I can't see is how to turn something that's an armoured vest or something that covers the torso with additional sleeves, as well as some protection for the legs, neck and head, can be easily sealed short of pulling on a NBC suit over the top of it.

I think we can agree that defeats the point of wearing the stuff under the suit in the first place, right?

I'd also wonder why a person would go to the effort of having a fully sealed set of armour. The amount of environments that need it are pretty limited. Sure, if you're Run is happening near Chernobyl, Pripyat, you'll need it. While the Sixth World is heavily polluted, I don't think you need one to leave the house. Air locks would be a lot more common as well.

I think perhaps the best thing to do here is actually house rule this away, that Chem Sealed items are separate to Full Body Armour. Right now I can't reconcile the two to be honest.

Though I'd like to add if we're talking about a large number of chemical agents, they work on inhalation or absorption. So a thick layer of water repellent cloth and a heavy duty filter on a gas mask might be enough to stop effectively all contaminants. If they said that Chem Sealed was a kit that could be added to armour, that certain armours are easier to seal than others, I would be much happier. It would be a lot more consistent on some level.